Keyless Locks And The Future?

[Bud Wiser]

The electronic stuff, even the high-end stuff, tends to have many MORE vulnerabilities than the mechanical devices, so please don't say the electronic devices are more secure because they can't be picked--so you're saying the electronic devices can't be BYPASSED then? BWWWAHAHAHAHAHAAA!! Yeah right! That incident with the 'Bluechip' (or whatever it was, it was Blue-something) lock, that Barry Wels has talked about in his presentations before, and the big-a$$ magnet is NOT the EXCEPTION to the rule for electronic locks: it IS the rule!!

Who said electrical or computerized systems can not be bypassed? Not me. I think you'll find I said the opposite early on in the thread, "even high end security systems can be bypassed.."

ANY THING can be bypassed, including a S&G 8400. It's already been pointed out a few times that there is NO FOOL PROOF solution. There will always be vulnerabilities. But that does not stop technology from moving forward. The fact that the majority may not like, trust, or want any of this right now, will not stop this technology from moving forward and progressing, and eventually becoming mainstream. Otherwise we'd all still be using warded locks

It's all about peace of mind and practical uses. For most people a simple kwikset lock will do for now

[Bud Wiser]

i just can't see how a security system is made more secure by being able to "manually" check up on things periodically. the chances of catching something while it's happening are very slim unless you are vigilantly watching your house which you shouldn't have to seeing as you paid for the system.
i know there are a few uses, especially if you want to watch employees or something like that (our retired owner watches us, which annoys me to no end) but 99% of the people who buy it from us really have no need to.

It's not really so much the ability to catch some one in the act as it is more for your peace of mind. I would jokingly remind my clients it's not our job to "catch" the criminals, that job belongs to the police. Some of these people if they had it their way would employ more fatal measures.

It's more secure because it permits you the ability to monitor your home any time you want. It provides added peace of mind. You may not be as concerned with intruders as you are with making sure other things got done or not changed.

It really is all about peace of mind. If this gives you more peace of mind then you will want it. And it also has practical uses too.

You and I know such systems in place will probably NEVER be actually put to the real test. That is why I said earlier on, in the security industry, we really are not selling equipment, we are selling peace of mind.

Is this a over kill? Absolutely for the majority of people and situations. And no security consultant would try to sell a over kill. They simply sell what ever is needed to fill the peace of mind required to satisfy the consumer. But in some situations it may be practical to introduce the consumer or company to some of these options.

I think a lot of these things will eventually become very common place as price drops and the technology improves even more. Granted not any time soon.

Not let me ask you some thing. Be honest! You don't find all this interesting and intriguing?

[devildog]

Oh I know, I wasn't really referring to anyone in particular when I said that, I was just responding to what most people's perception is of high-end electronic security devices: 'well, it's electronic and high-tech and really expensive, it must be unbeatable'. Sure, you can always drill an 8400 (you can bypass an X-09 this way, too, BTW--lockmaster's is already selling drill point templates and instructions on it ). I'm just saying the 8400 does it's job better and more reliably than the X-09 would do the same or similar job.

I've ALWAYS advocated at the top of my lungs to anyone who would listen: There is no lock, safe, alarm, or any other security device (physical, digital, or otherwise) that is 'impossible' to bypass, there never has been, and there never will be.

[CaptB]

The one thing i do come across more often than i should. Is people spending money on high quality locks with cheap doors that suffer with flexing,easy to break through or the wrong type of door installed. Technology only moves at the pace its required. But 90% of problems occur due to misuse, wrong coding (software), or manufacturing faults by either cheap parts or such as components people fitting them without earth straps etc. Which is why you only get a maximum of 5 - 10 yrs out of something. But this is also built into the design. What manufactuer on this planet want you to only sell one item to
one house?? The same reason we have faults on cars. There is more money in repairs than there is in the initial product.

[Romstar]

I see the same problems every day. Weak doors, improper closers, cheap hinges, cheap frame.

The worst part is when the customer just won't listen to you. They think there is no difference between a $45.00 set of hinges and a $15.00 set from the hardware. They don't understand why a door frame has to be rebuilt because the contractor didn't think about locks when he framed it.

They consider cardboard or foam filled doors adequate whei it is obvious from the outset that the door flexes.

So many times the fault lies not just in the hardware installed, but in the hardware demanded by the consumer.

Add in the extra problem of too many people cutting corners trying to maximize their profit margin, and you get a mess.

Electronics are delicate devices, prone to failure no matter how hard you try to engineer fault tolerance. In addition, they rely a great deal on the security through obscurity method.

The vast majority of people couldn't design an electronic circuit, let alone reverse one. Add in proprietary hard code and you think you have something special. The fact of the matter is that there are people who tear these things apart for fun, and they are so often cheaply and poorly designed that the problem isn't that difficult.

Electronic locks are completely in their infancy. We are trying to apply devices meant for computing in harsh enviroments, and the failure rates are astronomical. How many times have you seen a card reader, or even an X-09 on a door and right beside it is mechanical key override?

Its going to be a long time before we have secure and reliable electronic locks. In the meantime, we will continue to see advnaces in mechanical locks as well, and our jobs are still secure.

Romstar

[dosman]

Here is something to consider regarding electronic locks of any kind. Once the locks interface becomes electronic in nature, brute forcing combination codes becomes easier. I've built equipment for doing this. If you've ever heard of a stepper motor used to brute force the combination to a safe, just think of an electronic circuit whirring away as fast as the interface will accept combinations. Who cares if the lock is capable of 200 million combinations, when you can try them all in 45 seconds the point is moot.

[CaptB]

Depends how complicated the circuits get.

The worst installation ive seen involves fail lock doors on a swipe card system. Which when power is lost on the Power supplies (because it has no backup battery system installed). It locks the doors on a complete floor 8 stories up in an office block. Which means you cant get in or out of the office area to the stairs or lift.

Advised the client and its been put on the back burner for budget assessment.

Getting back to combinations. It depends how intelligent the programming on the circuits become in future. For example if a connection has to be made it may be able to send a signal to a phone etc. Saying its cover has been removed etc. Or code entry has been entered X of times in correctly and shut down etc.

There will always be a way round any system. There has to be a fail safe Rephrase that SHOULD be a fail safe.

[linty]

Here is something to consider regarding electronic locks of any kind. Once the locks interface becomes electronic in nature, brute forcing combination codes becomes easier. I've built equipment for doing this. If you've ever heard of a stepper motor used to brute force the combination to a safe, just think of an electronic circuit whirring away as fast as the interface will accept combinations. Who cares if the lock is capable of 200 million combinations, when you can try them all in 45 seconds the point is moot.

a 27 bit system would be about 270 million combinations, let's say you could do that in a minute (which is probably not very realistic, since they won't really optimise these locks to accept as many combinations as possible in a given timeframe, more likely they could quite easily limit them to a combination a second if this ever became a problem)

regardless, let's say 270 million a minute. they switch to a 64 bit code (quite feasible) , and you're now talking about 68 billion minutes to go through all possibilities.

yes there is always a possibility of brute force attacks being successful, but i would consider them a very small threat.

[abrace]

Not that is changes the facts of your post much, but a 27 bit system would have about 134 million possible combinations.

[Mutzy]

at work, we're doing a large access control system. 3 doors with heypad and/or proximity sensors. But always with mechanical override.

We will never be obsolete.

[lechacal]

I believe that the future will indeed proceed with electronic locks and technologically advanced algorithms. however, the young hackers of today will only need a wireless laptop to open them, maybe even palm. Example - Beckham's Bmw X5…

[SmokieD]

I believe that the future will indeed proceed with electronic locks and technologically advanced algorithms. however, the young hackers of today will only need a wireless laptop to open them, maybe even palm. Example - Beckham's Bmw X5…

From what i heard it was a gang of professional thiefs, not your average wallet snatching, egg throwing teenager. You must need certain info from the BMW dealership or company, for you to even circumvent the alarm or bypass it. I could be wrong though, Im no expert.

[ldnlksmth]

I don't know about any other trading 'smiths out there, but I've been doing electronics for years. Maglocks, electric strikes, patient wander systems, all of these things I install, and service, and upgrade, and maintain. CCTV systems with remote monitoring capabilities... the list goes on and on.

Even the most impressive elctronic system is still, by its perimeters, a reactive thing. It might go off before the door gets broken, but it still has to be activated to go off. The closest we get is actively monitored cameras (VERY expensive to pay someone, usually 8-12 people to watch your camera system) or curtain sensors outside the building (huge false alarm rate).

The logic is sound: evolve or die. It's taken near 3000 years to get to a point where mechanical locks are as secure as they can be (egyptians had a wooden type of tumbler lock with a key like 2 feet long). Electronics need to become significantly more secure before they can be trusted to replace mechanical locks (even on the most electronic-dependant sites, every door still has a backup mechanical lock in case of failure), and that's not going to happen in my lifetime or that of my not-yet-existant children.

In my ideal world, every electronic lock would have a biometric/ password
dual credential (have to have both to get in), each reader/keypad would have a tamper switch that, if activated, rolls down one of those man-trap doors on the inside of the protected door and can only be opened from the inside. Every maglock would also activate this backup if deactivated without proper credentials. There truly is no thrill like overkill, but from where I'm sitting, that would seem like a pretty sound way to do things.

[globallockytoo]

It's funny y'know. I interviewed for a job almost 9 months ago where I was being interviewed for a position in sales for a lock and door company.

I have 25 years experience in the locksmith trade, with many years managing locksmith shops and teams of service personnel and was offered a fairly lucrutative compensation by the managing director.

However, at the 5th interview,to my disbelief (and the managing directors) the sales manager was included in the interview and commented in my presence that it was his belief that locksmithing would be a dead trade inside 10 years.

I took offence at this remark and rebutted instantly that our trade had been around for many more years than modern access control systems and will still be needed even where access control is not required.

After he left the room, the MD apologised to me, saying she couldnt believe he said that as locksmithing was one of the cores of her business.
I immediately informed her that I felt I couldnt work for her company because of his attitude and it was my opinion that locksmithing will never die (even mechanically) because, even if there was no crime, there would always be the desire for personal privacy and hence for mechanical locking devices and systems.

She agreed completely and offered me to come back at any time (as she had never had anyone apply for a position with her with anything close to my qualifications).

Electronics will come and go...and will improve over time...but will never be as efficient and reliable as mechanical security and access control devices, nor as economical.

[ldnlksmth]

I understand your sentiment... I worked for a (strictly) alarm company, also in sales. When I told him I was a locksmith, he asked if I felt more secure coming into the 'new wave' of security. I politely informed the company owner that, no matter how good an alarm system may be, it can't STOP anyone from entering. We got into a huge proactive/reactive argument where I showed him exactly why every alarm system is reactive and will always be.

Good for you for stiticking up to the 'man'. I agree that in terms of keeping people out, mechanical locks will probably always be better than anything electronic.

Providing more thorough access control however, may be a different story. The Locksmith Ledger recently (the month escapes me now, maybe November) was all about institutional locksmithing, and a story followed around a spam/hotel 'smith. Even though his system was not as up to date as it could be, he could change the lock on every hotel room (more than 5,000 if I'm right) in just a couple of hours (faster if his system were computer controlled online, not standalones). Can't possibly do that with mechanical locks.

I think there will always be a place for mechanical locks. I think that electornics will find their niche and do very well at it. I think we need both to provide the best security possible. Regardless of what happens, someone will have to be here to fix this stuff when it breaks. The times they are a changin'. I don't know a single locksmith that does JUST mechanical locks anymore, and makes enough to stay afloat.