Foley- Belsaw lesson on impressioning a pin tumler lock

[Lucky1406]

So my question for ldnlksmth:

Does that mean that if its a high security lock, that you would just drill the lock out, and make the customer pay for a new one, when you caoule have just picked it and saved him/her a lot of money? I think I'd rather ask the customer what they would like for me to do. To try and pick it, or to just drill it. just my 2 cents,
Nick

[ldnlksmth]

Customers have high security locks for a reason. For the most part, key control and reasonable access denial is what they need. Using Medeco as an example, my customers get an excellent lock, absolute key control, reasonable pick and drill resistance. There is no question that this is the function of the Medeco biaxial system. If I walk in and pick it, just like any other lock, why would that customer bother with Medeco. A lesser security (Peaks) and less expensive system would be adequate.

I know it sounds bad, but I'm in business to make money. The more secure my product looks, the more likely I am to sell it. I'm not a sealzy person, but the customer pays for high security and that's what they should get. Drill it out, replace it and keep the customer happy. If they've lost the keys, maybe it's time to upgrade to biometrics. If they're concerned about covert B+E, sell a camera system. it's all about need.

[Lucky1406]

I asked my girlfriend about this, and she could not believe it. I'm not sure sleazy would sum up the words that she used to describe those kind of actions. I also think that its unethical and the truth is always better than any fabrication. To put false security into the minds of your buyers doesn't sound ethical to me. I'm thinking about it more like if you were to sell a master lock to some kid, and you were to tell him that its the best lock in the world, and that it cant be picked. And that you did this to make him feel more secure. Well, now he feels great, but the truth is that there are security flaws with the lock, and that it can be picked, and that that feeling of security is false. So if it gets picked, he will now be hit harder than if he was told the truth. I think that the truth should always be used. Giving people what they want by not telling them the truth is just wrong.

Well, thats my 2 cents. personaly, I would state the truth, and if they want better, they can get a pushbutton code lock. I just think that the truth should be told, or else we could find ourselves with another bic-pin bike lock problem, by not telling the customers about the safety flaws of their locks.
Nick

[hippy5749]

I agree with Lucky1406. It doesn't seem to be fair to the customer, letting them think that the lock is unpickable. I would let them know that I am trained and highly skilled in NDE. Give them a choice of letting me try to open with picking or drill it out and install a new one. I would be afraid people would think I am just another drill jockey if I didn't at least try NDE. I don't mean to put anyone down, but that just is the way I feel about it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions in life.

[Romstar]

Pick a lock at a bank, and they will be upgrading in a real hurry.

While it is true that 99.5% of thefts will be acomplished with destructive methods a bank or an art gallery for example need to worry about the professional thief as much, or more so than anyone else.

So, if you can pick the lock, so can the dedicated pro thief.

While in some cases it may be appropriate to demonstarte to a customer that their security can be improved, you also want to weigh this against the physical realities of the location.

For example, many aluminum door installations provide for a number of bypasses. Do you want to show up, push a wire in a lock and be in, all in under a minute? The "J" tool is a fun trick that takes many store managers by surprise.

Consider the physical properties of the door, its mounting, the surrounding physical properties and the other layers of security that are involved.

Certain things you can eliminate, certain things you can mitigate and others you just have to live with.

On the topic of "homemade" tools, in many cases if you take time, and care about what you are doing, your tools can look as good as anything "professionally" made.

ldnlksmth is correct in that you always want to project a strong, neat and professional image. This means that if you do make your own tools, they better look darn good, or never be seen by the customer.

He is also correct in that a high security lock should not yeild easily to picking or manipulation. If there is an obvious security flaw or danger you need to discuss this with the client. Not put them into a panic. High security locks are called that because they are supposed to be difficult to manipulate or defeat without a great deal of skill and practice.

If it looks too easy, it probably is.

If it is not your HS install, you will obviously not have a key code. Explain to the customer that while it may be possible to pick or bypass the lock, it will take time and the easiest method of entry is destructive. Its true in almost all cases, reassures the customer of their choice in hardware, and gets you paid.

If you can pick a Medeco faster than you can drill it, or find another way in I salute you.

Romstar

[Lucky1406]

More than half of the locksmiths out there won't even tell the property owner that the frame is poorly constructed, or that there is no stud beside the strike. What do you think that does to a nice new Medeco?

Shiny lock, and crappy door frame. The lick pick sounds like the tool of choice there. I know, because I have frequently been the one called to rebuild the mess after a break-in performed with exactly that tool.

Its sad actually that so many locksmiths won't go the extra mile.

Romstar

This was a post in another thread, But I think that Romstar sums it up nicely.
nick

[jimb]

Pick a lock at a bank, and they will be upgrading in a real hurry.

If I remember correctly one of the Foley Belsaw lessons state that some banks will not allow you to pick safety deposit boxes. They require you to drill and replace them.

[stilte]

On that thought, most banks are more concerned with outright armed robbery rather than burglary.

[Lucky1406]

Jimb: as to picking safety deposit boxes. I could imagine that they dont want people picking so that there is no chance of damaging the lock. Also, so that if there is ever a question of false entry, they can examin the lock for marks left by the picks. That way they know that they aren't just looking at pick marks left by a locksmith from ten years ago,
Just my thoughts,
Nick

[Romstar]

On that thought, most banks are more concerned with outright armed robbery rather than burglary.

Oh for sure they are concerned with that, but there isn't a lot you can do about it if someone comes in with a gun. That basically falls under armed response and identification.

While it is of major concern to most banks, the other major concern, as I have said is burglary.

When you consider the risks of a bank job, any professional is going to opt for burglary long before they consider armed robbery. Thats where all the fun begins for the security professional.

As for safe-deposit boxes, you will replace the locks frequently but it has more to do with key control and reliability than anything else.

Romstar

[jimb]

Jimb: as to picking safety deposit boxes. I could imagine that they dont want people picking so that there is no chance of damaging the lock.

The way it is explained is that they don't want anyone to see a safety deposit box opened by picking. They are afraid that people may think they are not secure.

[lockdr]

i cheated on my courses pin tumbler impressioning
honestly, impressioning is a useful skill but in pin tumblers i have yet to come across any realistic use for it...

I have known about Locksmiths being called 3 times. Of these 2 times impressioning was used. On one, my boss lost the keys to his Ford, Locksmith impressioned it. I lost the keys to my toolbox once, Locksmith impressioned it and gave me a nice new key, then duplicated it for me. The one time Locksmith did not impression was when (dingy) neighbor lady locked her keys (and purse inside her apartment. Locksmith came out and used pick gun. Took more time for him to collect money than for him to open the door. Impressioning is a useful skill to have and is one of the marks of a competent Locksmith.

[ldnlksmth]

sorry everyone, I should have taken more time to word my last post properly. The idea was that if there are security flaws, they should be upgraded. There is no question that Medeco, ASSA and other high security locks are more difficult to manipulate, that's one of the reasons they exist. NDE should be the first method in most cases. I did a bank safe deposit opening once (got subbed out by their regular smith) wherein I could have easily picked it open, but was specifically instructed to make the lock SEEM more secure in the eyes of the customer. That's the point I'm trying to make. No lock in unpickable, everything made by man can be defeated by man (referring to humans, not male of the species). The more secure a lock is (UL 437 meet or exceed) the better off a property is, no matter what.

[Romstar]

So your customer understood the limitations of the lock, but they didn't want their customer to think less of the security.

Understandable.

Most people don't really understand safe deposit boxes anyway, so I can see that being a request.

Romstar

[ldnlksmth]

it's true, really just about keeping up appearances. Customers don't WANT to know that their SAFE deposite box can be accessed without their knowledge or leaving any evidence. As far as they know, if I have to break in to open it, then SOMEONE will notice if it's been comprimised. it's unfortunate, but people who don't understand how locks work don't want to know the technical side of it, they just want to know that it's hard to get in and someone will make enough noise or do enough damage for the CSI's of the world to solve the case in 48 minutes while they eat supper.