scientific force on bumping?

[unjust]

hi all.. first post off the welcome stickie.

so i understand the principle of bumping, and (hopefully) this weekend will get around to tinkering with the front door a bit, (and probably abusing some spring steel into some picks and wrenches) but i'm wondering if anything has been done in regard to studying the actual ammount/nature of the force necessary to bump the typical lock.

i notice that most bump hammers are relatively low in mass, and seem to rely as much on spring force as impact mass.....

we looking at half a newton? significantly less?

granted there's friction/weight to ovrecome, but (in theory) it's all about the springs, and 4-6 springs, compressed over a fraction of an inch....

[rohi]

better start searchingfor omikron's kebump before it get's hot in here

Ronald

[unjust]

but most of the links on it seem to be dead outside of the forum. got a live one for me? i'm looking for specific force numbers (ranges really) rather than a gizmo.


(as a side note, as a new member but long time netizen i'm a bit surprised by the sheer number of replies that direct folks to do some searching, but which do not necessarily relate to the question asked. although having had forum moderator tacked behind my name before i do appreciate the need to get newbies to look arund before asking. remember what seems obvious to you is not to someoen less adept and verssed.)

[Lucky1406]

If you're looking for locks to pick, buy some but, DO NOT PICK LOCKS YOU RELY ON
I repeat DO NOT PICK LOCKS YOU RELY ON, they can and will break, then your house/car/safe/chasity belt is vulnerable or unable to be opened (think: emergency situation).

Cheers,
UWSDWF

But as for what you were asking, If you really want hear something strange, I've seen people bump locks by flicking the key with thier finger! Now thats strange.
Nick

[ComTech]

Maybe you can look on the TOOOL web site and find the name of that German engineer who designed the tomahawk, I think he figured it out mathematically.

[SEVEN]

I have found it's not important what you hit the key with but how hard you hit it.As for how many newton's not a clue.

[greyman]

It's not the force it's the impact. These are not quite the same. Think of applying a force over a very short time - this is an impact. Bumping works by impact, ie applying a short, sharp force to the pins via the bump key. The duration is so short that for a split second it separates the upper and lower pins as the momentum is transferred between them. A short time later, the driver sping recovers and pushes the pins back together...

[unjust]

there is still a specific (agerage) ammount of energy that needs to be transfered at or above a base speed.

i'm trying to put together exactly how much oomph is needed.

how's this:

it's functionally a released spring so it' smoving pretty fast. can someone who can reliably bump a variety of locks and as such has a solid feel for it, bump their kitchen scale a few times and tell me what the max readings are?

i'm hitting the hardware store this weekend for a few things anyway and will be grabbign a few key blanks to tinker with ye old rubber mallet and the front door with, i'm just trying ot get a handle on if i'm whacking it or nudging it, and wether or not that's something i can replicate as a gizmo other than a funny lil hammer.

[Legion303]

It should be relatively easy to gather some empirical evidence. Get a pulley, some twine, a fish scale, and make yourself an automated bump hammer. Experiment and find out how many ft-lbs of force it takes to successfully bump. Convert to newtons.

-steve

[keysman]

I don't have any idea about the foot-lbs or Newton’s required. Try the handle of your
rubber mallet for better results.... I found a 12oz ( 1/4 kilo) hammer handle works well(
head attached held upside down) .. a good sharp strike is the trick.

Yes my hammer handle looks like it has been through a war, but it works .. as a bump
hammer and a hammer handle too.

No offense to the manufacturers of bump hammers.. but in a recent test ( last summer
during the ALOA convention) ...my beat up $10.00 ball pean hammer + handle opened
locks more reliably than a specific manufacturer’s bump hammer.
It was a 6 pin Schlage pin E keyway., several master padlocks + a few Almonts .
Contact me my privately for exact times, dates and manufacturer.

[JackNco]

ok ill be honest i cant be bothered to read the whole thread so if this has been said im sorry...

Its not the low mass but the ability to take some of the impact of the strike (Personally i use a padlock with a plastic case)

No real reaserach just experience. ive seen bump hammers made of a bit of flipper and some polythene.

John

[zeke79]

I don't have any idea about the foot-lbs or Newton’s required. Try the handle of your
rubber mallet for better results.... I found a 12oz ( 1/4 kilo) hammer handle works well(
head attached held upside down) .. a good sharp strike is the trick.

Yes my hammer handle looks like it has been through a war, but it works .. as a bump
hammer and a hammer handle too.

No offense to the manufacturers of bump hammers.. but in a recent test ( last summer
during the ALOA convention) ...my beat up $10.00 ball pean hammer + handle opened
locks more reliably than a specific manufacturer’s bump hammer.
It was a 6 pin Schlage pin E keyway., several master padlocks + a few Almonts .
Contact me my privately for exact times, dates and manufacturer.

Were these your locks or random locks? I think the main thing comes down to it is what you are used to using. If you get used to using a hammer handle then that is what you are going to have the best luck with. To prove otherwise would be very hard even with a mechanical device.

[ccbiker]

It's not the force it's the impact. These are not quite the same. Think of applying a force over a very short time - this is an impact. Bumping works by impact, ie applying a short, sharp force to the pins via the bump key. The duration is so short that for a split second it separates the upper and lower pins as the momentum is transferred between them. A short time later, the driver sping recovers and pushes the pins back together...

Well, I believe you mean "impulse", but yeah... Average force * time = x Newton Seconds