Let's make a new tool-"Picked lock pin decoder"

[Brl1214]

I'm thinking of some type of dud key with tiny hydraulic pumps and special goo over the pumps to make a exact replica of the key you are trying to acheve? My theory

[zeke79]

How do you withdraw the key when hydraulic pressure is up? If you have a 6 cut in front of a 2 cut you will have to back off hydraulics to take this key out.....

[d_goldsmith]

Not if you turn the key back to center, and the lifters are at an angle like key cuts. As long as pressure doesn't push the lifters higher when there is no resistance it would draw right out and the lifters would stay where they were. Good idea.

If you had a screw whole in the back of the key dud, you could fill it with something to push them all up, then put in the screw to keep them set where they are, and then twist the plug back to the drivers and take it out.

While typing that though, I realized that if it was only one chamber, the pressure would distribute between lifters and they would move around when you pulled it out. you'd have to have individual chambers and individual filling methods. definitely doable though if you have a machine shop.

Will post picture of what I'm thinking soon.

[lockdr]

What I'm thinking of (drawing on my years as a Tooling Designer) is some sort of thing with cams to raise each individual pin. The "key" could function as a tension wrench, and a dial could be used for each pin. Note that only the part that fits into the keyway is limited in size/shape. The rest of it can be the size of a doorknob. Anyone who has ever used a Schlage Wafer Pick set will know what I mean here. That's the one with the half-key and a shim. I'm working this out as we speak. All comments/criticisms/ suggestions appreciated.

[zeke79]

When I looked at the decoder I designed, I looked at a "pin in cam system" but there was not enough room for the cam that I could see unless you have a more radical design than I envisioned.

[d_goldsmith]

I realized while making the hydraulic idea in paint that the manufacturer/lock length of a deepest cut would have to be half, or less than half, of (the total width of that manufacturer/lock blank minus the space consumed by fluid ports). That way the finished unit could collapse enough to fit in the keyway with a deepest cut pin, and still be able to raise high enough for a shallowest cut (width of the blank).

Here's a ruff draft of the idea. Keep in mind, making the space consumed by fluid ports as small vertically as possible is necessary. Also if the deepest cut pin length for the manufacturer is longer than half of the width of the blank, this would not work.



I like the cam idea too, same principle but with cams instead that you could turn to raise and lower. If you knew the depths of the manufacturer's cuts, you could calibrate each cam to read which depth cut it was, and wouldn't need them to stay in place while you drew the key out.

[lockdr]

Zeke, it looks like we're on the same page here... You ran into the same obstacle I saw in trying to figure this one out. THe only way I see is to come up with some sort of actuating mechanism outside the keyhole, in other words, the only place where size is limited is in the "dummy Key" part. Some sort of series of dials could then be outside in some kind of handle, the size of which would be limited only by what the locksmith could get his/her hand around. I have some high end 3D drafting programs at my disposal.
Does this forum software accept .dxf files?

[zeke79]

NO, it does not. PDF files you can host or I can host for you or the simplest method is to take screen shots of you cad design to show us.

[Shrub]

When I looked at the decoder I designed, I looked at a "pin in cam system" but there was not enough room for the cam that I could see unless you have a more radical design than I envisioned.

It can be done, it needs a little redesign on the thinking of a P+C but it can be done and has been done for locks like the 3ks,

Its just not an appropreate subject for the open forums lol

[zeke79]

Shrub now you have my wheels turning again thinking about this P&C....

Atleast I have AutoCAD at work .

[unjust]

but you're going to have soem -really- bitty fluid paths there, which are goign to take a LOT of pressure or very slow pressure to equalize.

imho the best method for this sort of decoder would be a mechanical device that's functionally a pin that will be extended up until it meets a pin, the distance is marked and repeated per pin.

the method of raisign one pin could be easily done hydrolically with the key being withdrawn one pin per depth, and you'll have a fluid path that's a much more useful volume.

(n.b. if no one's sorted it out yet, i'm a reasonably wretched typist and marginally adept at spelling. my appologies in general to the board)

[unjust]

i am a draftsperson by trade and typically (when the comp isnt' in pieces) have access to several flavours of drafting and modeling soft if people want to see how some things interact that i can throw items together with as time allows.

if memory serves i presently have 3dmax 5?, inventor 7, ADT 2005, ACADLT, 2000, 2004, ACAD 14, 2000, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, Revit 7, 8, 9, 9.1, sketchup, cheif archtect ?, viz ?, viz render 04, 05, and a few other misc CAD related programs on the home box, so i can do most anything. (all legit copies, no, i can't provide you a copy or key, but if you're missing a dll or a driver or the like i may be able to help. or if you have CAD issues in general.)

[Shrub]

Ive got some sketchup in the cupboard for my chips and ive got some copies of viz under my bed somewhere lol

Thats a lot of software you have, reminds me of when i did technical drawing except it was on paper or autocad lol

[unjust]

most of it is legacy stuff for trouble shooting. imho for many things hand drafting is the way to go and MUCH ore satisfying than CAD, although computer modeling (modeling != drafting) is a boatload of fun.

on topic though, an elastic epoxy sheet over a hydraulic filled key may work, as may allow for a wavy key to be made, however not overcompressing it and binding it into teh pin holes would be an issue.

[Bump]

Hate to pour custard over your gravy but I believe this idea has already been patented by SV. Never seen the tool but it works on the principle of thin wires entering each individual pin stack and calibrating the height of the bottom pin from which you can then produce a make-up key.

Fiendishly expensive (about £5000 at the last time of hearing) notoriously difficult to use and liable to damage from anyone other than a very delicate operator.

Could be an urban myth though!