Has anyone heard of the King and Queen Pick

[pickmonger]

I am looking for any information about a pick refered to as the King and Queen.

It was mentioned in connection with a lockpicker named SAK or Sak Systems who supposedly wrote a tutorial called Lockpickdesign and Engineering.

Eddie the wire refers in passing to King and Queen Picks in his book but does not give any further info.

I suspect that it comes from Germany or Eastern Europe.

Thanks

[Romstar]

I have the book you are refering to. It was published, by Paladin Press, as well I assume other publishers.

The SAK system is primarially concerned with European lock systems which vary in some respects to common American and Canadian lock systems.

The SAK system is based primarialy on measurements, and mathematical assumptions. Although, after having made several of the picks and wrenchs outlined in the book I'd have to say that the system is fairly well thought out.

If I find the book I will at least scan and post the relevant images.

[Romstar]

Kinda sounds like something a Canadian might say, or maybe a staunch Brit. In any case, it seems that I'm not doing something right, so I am going to repost the link.

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/romsta ... m=3101.jpg

[technik]

ye, the last 2 URL's work dude, well done

[Absinthe]

Hmmm, so are they to scale or aren't they? The first paragraph says the following is to scale, the closing text says they are not

It would be interesting to see some measurements or an actual scale or legend involved if anyone has actually made one of these.

[macaba]

Hmm, i think i'm going to have to try to make some somewhen.

[Romstar]

Okay, it sort of works out like this.

It is sort of scale.

In the original drawing, each of the verticle divisions is 2cm, the scale used in the SAK book is every 1/2cm = 1mm

This would mean about a 5 to 1 scale.

Because I scanned and resized it I can't rely on the printed scale to be accurate. Although, if you get it to print out, and the lines are 2cm apart, that equals 4mm in real size.

I hope that clarifies some of the mess.

Oh, and if a moderator could fix my mess I would appreciate it.

Romstar

[PYRO1234321]

I liked the concept of these pick designs (thanks for the picture Romstar). They seemed to maximize various rake signatures with a minimum of picks. after making some as a test, i quickly realized that i should have used a template, as they can easily turn into big w-rakes fast when free-hand grinding with a dremel. as with all rakes, small changes can have big differences depending on the pinning and such, so the more the better IMO. As for scale, i got the impression from the diagram that they were intended for 5 pin locks (the various 1-5 horizontal numbering), so the space between the #'s would relate to pin stack spacing for the cylinder of choice.

The picture below are 2 that i made from some "pick blanks" that i made a while ago, so the amount of metal left on the tip was not really adequate for this design. overall i think i'll try to make a few better versions, since they seem to work well for raking and rocking/bouncing. reminiscent of long rakes and those computer generated picks, not really suited for tight keyways.

[Chucklz]

Romstar
I've cleaned everything up quite a bit.


I have been watching this thread with great interest, but as I am at school, without any grinders, dremels or hacksaw blades. So if anyone gets this to work as well as I hope it will, please let us all know.

[Romstar]

Good looking work Pyro, they look quite a lot like the ones I created. I think your spacing is different than mine though.
You are right about the keyways though. The more restrictive the keyway, the more difficult the insertion. However, that's when you get to use them the way they were intended.

SAK believes they work on 60% or more of the locks tried when inserted properly and simply lifted straight up. This is the same way the computer generated picks are meant to be used. Despite their adaptablity to scrubbing, they are meant mostly to be inserted to a certain depth and lifted.

Oh, and thanks for the clean up work Chucklz. I really appreciate it.

Romstar

[Chucklz]

I took a quick look at my HPC computer generated picks. There are two picks that are vaguely similar, except they use gentle curves.

[Romstar]

The software used to design the "computer" picks was set to reduce sharp angles. Those picks were meant for use by agents in the field with little or no lock opening training.

The king and queen on the other hand were meant to be used in a system of deliberate attack and as such are meant to be used by persons with a greater understanding of how to impliment them.

I firmly believe that the king and queen can be used both ways, and could result in two versions of each pick. The originals, and modified versions with less acute angles.

For the time of their design, they were an excellent option, and one of the few available picks of that nature.

Romstar

[macaba]

A King, fresh off the production line.

Nope, its not pretty!

[Romstar]

Looks pretty darn good.

Tell me, do you have a problem with your pick shanks bending when you use hacksaw blades?

[macaba]

Absolutely no problem. It depends on choice of material. After some deliberation, i decided to use a JUNIOR hacksaw blade simply because it was less to grind. Its also because i only have hacksaw blade types in the extremes- Extremely stiff (very good as picks) and 'bend and set' (not so good as picks, my expression meaning that when you bend it, it stays bent, unless the high carbon steel content ones.) But my junior hacksaw blades were in the middle.