Pick legality issues resolved

[kepiblanc]

Some online forums that I've seen have a spell check feature, but this is unfortunately not one of them. I don't know about anybody else, but when I submit a post here, especially a rather lengthy one, I usually make use of the "Preview" button to proofread it first once or twice.

I also usually copy and paste my entire post into a blank word document file so that I can spell check it there, and then correct any mistakes accordingly. I would encourage everybody else here who was word processing software, such as Microsoft Word or Corel WordPerfect, to do likewise.

I will concede that even my own posts are not 100% flawless; in fact, I caught one double usage of the word "are" in a recent post of mine too late just now. I still make an effort though, rather than just post something later on about how I am a bad speller or whatever.

While some mistakes made here and there are unlikely to ever bother those who speak English as a first language, this is the type of thing that can really frustrate those who are studying English and wish to learn about lock picking here also. I just read an old post from a guy in Pakistan who raised this very issue.

[kepiblanc]

I watched "America's Most Wanted" last night. I heard the show's host, John Walsh, tell viewers how a wanted fugitive escaped from a county jail in New Jersey by picking a lock with a piece from his eyeglass frames. This ultimately gave him access to the roof to make his escape.

kepiblanc, I know that you brought up that little story just for getting your point across, and the comparison is valid and undisputed.

But regarding the story itself - does anyone here really think that this is indeed possible? I have trouble believing this. I think I have seen examples of locks used in jail on here or some other site, and they look devilish. I have trouble believing that a beast like that can be picked or bypassed with just a bit broken of an eyeglass frame...

Apart from that, don't jails implement multiple lines of security, like triggering a circuit when the door is open, video surveilance of the hallways etc.?

Honestly, I think that was bunk to add some drama to the story. Or maybe a turnkey was so hellishly drunk he forgot to lock up properly and they claimed a successful picking in the report to steer clear of having the jailer fired....

p1ckf1sh,

I wish to clarify something about this segment which I recently viewed on "America's Most Wanted". I watched this segment very closely. In addition to the host telling his audience about the fugitive picking this lock, video footage was shown to illustrate what happened.

The lock in question which was shown appeared to be a wafer tumbler cylinder, one which secured an access panel to an overhead ventilation area. A detached temple bar was then shown being inserted into the keyway and twisted. In reality, the temple bar likely would have to have been used to rake or lift the wafers, but the segment producers probably would not have wished to depict such a thing. The opposite temple bar perhaps could have been used to apply torque to the cylinder, but this was not shown in this segment, either.

After picking the lock, the prisoner made his up into the overhead ventilation area, squeezed himself through a steam exhaust pipe, and climbed onto the roof of the building. From the roof, he then somehow got to the ground below outside, thusly beginning his escaped prisoner status.

Being that wafer tumbler cylinders are relatively easy to pick, it doesn't seem that hard for me to believe that this prisoner was able to use the temple bars of his eyeglass frames as improvised lock picking tools.

[p1ckf1sh]

kepiblanc,

OK, with circumstances like these I think there is validity to the story. I was under the impression that the temple bar was used to pick the door lock and gain further access to the roof from the hallway or something like that.
I just wonder why they make so huge locks to slam on the doors and leave ventilation secured by a wafer lock. Was that a huge prison or was it just the holding cells of some provincial police station?

[kepiblanc]

kepiblanc,

OK, with circumstances like these I think there is validity to the story. I was under the impression that the temple bar was used to pick the door lock and gain further access to the roof from the hallway or something like that.
I just wonder why they make so huge locks to slam on the doors and leave ventilation secured by a wafer lock. Was that a huge prison or was it just the holding cells of some provincial police station?

p1ckf1sh,

During this same TV show segment about the escaped fugitive, an official at the jail was interviewed. This man admitted that the fugitive himself had been able to find a major flaw in the design of the jail itself, which he then later exploited to facilitate his escape. This access panel was apparently located in an area which prisoners were already authorised to be, and the area was not under any type of video surveillance, nor normally posted with a guard on duty.

The place where this escape occurred was said to be a county jail, in an area of a state that seems to be rather rural. So once this fugitive had accessed the roof in the way that he did, it seems that he was already scot-free. In most states of the United States, county jail facilities can vary widely in size from huge to small, but seldom are they ever as secure as state or federal penitentiaries or prisons. Places like these are normally built on larger parcels of land and they typically have more guards, high perimeter walls or razor wire fences, canine units, watch towers, and so on.

[PCthug]

I`m a cop in the northeast of England, and thought i would give my view.

Carrying lock picks is not illegal, its the intentions of the user that could be and/or the location they are stopped.

If i was to stop you in the high street on a busy day with lock picks, and you informed me it was your hobby, and you were off to buy a lock from a hardware store, then i would let you go, (after doing checks to see if you were known to the law or not).

If i stopped you in a car park, near motorbikes then i may take a different view on it. Or if it was the dead of night, i may take a different view of it.

If you were stood looking at the bikes, then i could arrest for going equiped (A person has on him when not at his place of abode any items that can be used for any burglary, theft or cheat)

If i stopped you kneeling down at the bikes with picks in your hand, then i could arrest for attempt theft of motorvehicle.

The only way i could know their `intent` is to interview. Interviews can only be done at a police station and on tape, so they will need arresting and cautioning prior to this to bring them in.

Its all down to the officer, their knowledge, and what they want to do (some are lazy, and wouldnt want the trouble).

About a year a go i arrested a lad for going equiped, and he got 6 months in prison. What did he have on him? it was a mobile phone.
He was a known criminal (known for breaking into cars and stealing things), in a hot spot high crime area, and fit a description given by a witness of a male seen to be shining a light into cars during the dead of night. He used the light on his mobile to see what was in the cars, so he knew if he would break in or not.

I`m wanting to learn lockpicking to assist in my job. I get called to houses by concerned family members who havent seen/heard from relatives for a while, and need to gain entry to houses for wellfare checks. I normally force entry to their houses, damaging doors/locks and frames. If i could only pick it, then it would eleviate a lot of expense and trouble.


MATT

[shararm]

I live in CA and i cant find anything about the law on lockpicks if anybody knows anything please tell me.

[Prodigy]

I do beleive that PCThug has it all,

Yes you guys have to really understand, you cannot just read the text of the Law Statutes and interperate the meanings.

There are so many other factors that assist with the interperation of the Law, they include, previous cases (case law), Public Torts and in why the section was written in the first place.

It is fine for people to state individual items say, the "Hammer" could be defined as a break and enter tool or a screwdriver as the same. It is different in all countries and districts or blah blah.

BUT!! one thing is the same all over,,,,,,TIME, PLACE, CIRCUMSTANCE.

People have been charged with Assault with a deadly weapon when driving a car, but it is still a car. Others have been charged with murder without a body.

EVIDENCE PEOPLE!!!! If you have lockpicks in your possesion and there have been a number of break-ins in the area, well a copper can draw infrence to the fact that you have equipment that can open peoples property. You could be charged with possesiion of blah blah....

The Law is an ASS as they say, it is all open to interpretation is I guess what im trying to get to.

You cannot read the little sections and make a definitive answer. No one can, Police are just umpires, the lawers procecute and interperate the law. Jugde's Magistrates and 12 normal people off the street come up with the answer.

Ill get off the box now

Thanks.

[Irish Joe]

I`m a cop in the northeast of England, and thought i would give my view.

Carrying lock picks is not illegal, its the intentions of the user that could be and/or the location they are stopped.
MATT

yes in the UK they have to prove the guilty mind and act.
so you actually have to be equipped and then they have to prove that you are up to no good. As for me Im a forensics student so I think i have a good excuse !

[jabial]

In France it's not illegal to carry lockpicks but cops just ignore the law. I'll translate from memory what a cop friend told me :
"Cops will confiscate the tool and enter you to the nationwide file as a burglar that can't be prosecuted because of not enough evidence ; this information will be later used against you if there is any picking-related problem where you live or work.
Don't carry your picks with you unless you need them. You are going to a lockpicking party or to help a friend open his door, you take them ; you are not, you leave them at home. And never ever accept to open a door, even for your girlfriend, without having a paper signed requiring you to do so. A good deed never goes unpunished."

[gstrendkill]

Really if you aren't doing anything wrong, the cops wont be called on you. And on the off chance a cop is near you, he wont randomly search you which means he wont know you have the picks on your person. Don't do anything dumb and there really isn't much to worry about

[rayandmaura]

OK. what I have read here seems to center around the legality of being in possession of lock picks and yes the law is different from state to state. One thing that is not in question is the fact that if your not a locksmith, police officer, repo man, car dealer, fireman etc.. it is a federal offence to receive lock manipulation devices through the mail. It dosent matter what state your in or if you have them delivered through the U.S.P.S .. U.P.S .. FEDEX. ETC...... Some sites that sell lock manipulation devices have you actually "check" a box indicating that your either a locksmith repo-man car dealer etc.. before theyll ship them. Some sites want more proof like a copy of your permit or enrollment records from a locksmith school or just a digital signature swearing you have a right to these "tools". Now, some sites "bury" this info in their "buyer responsibilty" section or elsewhere and if your not actuly looking youll never see this. theyre just covering their butts. But by ordering from them your acknowledging to being a person who meets the goverments critria as a person allowed to receive them.And if your not you just broke a federal law. At least thats my interpertation of the law. rayandmaura

[raimundo]

there are essentially two types of cops, the locals who have seen you around and know if you make trouble or not, and strangers.

Stranger cops may be part of your city or county, but they do not know you and they are not to be trusted. they will try to get you to tell them all your personal information without so much as giving you their name. They will make criminalizing assumptions and try to get you to justify your whole life. It is your duty to keep them from straying into your privacy. Tell them that you will refer the questions to your legal counsel if he will write them down. beyond that he only has a right to your identification, the questions are part of the ways that he has been trained to releave you of your 4th and 14th amendment rights.

Yes, folks, the Bill of Rights, was the deal breaker of the US Constitution, they are amendments because the constitution was written by the framers to create a structure for government. for example how to settle a close election etc. (the supreme court does not have a constitutional duty to settle close elections. it only did it once, in2000 and that was corrupt.)
So the UNITED States could not be formed because no one wanted a constitution without the RIGHTS,
To form the country, every state had to sign on and without the billofrights, it was a non starter.

these rights are the basis of our constitution. It is the duty of every patriotic citizen to make the govenment comply, the government has no history of protecting the bill of rights, in fact it has a long history of trying to get around them. This is because the true power structure know no laws, it does what it wants. Money is the ultimate power. The constitution is only a fairly weak defense for the ordinary citizen. the Bill of Rights need people who will hold it up to the govenment and make them comply.

The government and supreme court are constantly slicing off more of the rights that we are guaranteed. The police spend millions of taxdollars every year so that they can go to conventions to learn from other cop speakers about how they tricked and got around the peoples rights.

The bill of rights needs to be upheld by the people, the government will not uphold it unless forced to. Bush has virtually crushed the constitution, stealing war powers from congress, all rights from the people, and as cheney says, "SO WHAT"

There are four branches of government, the legislative, who have abandoned the people who elected them and sold themselves to lobbiests,
The judiciary who are appointed by the president or resident in the case of stolen office. who makes sure they are corrupt before nominating them.
And the administration, which now has formed an autocracy which means that whim, fantasy and expediency all trump the constitution.

The forth branch of govenment is the PEOPLE, from them the other structures are allowed to form by the "social contract" which is the constitution. you get to vote, you get jury duty, taxes, they will draft you if they like, but that probably unconstitutional, but they do require you to participate in government, the people are the supreme and most important branch of government and at this time all the other structures of government are corrupted by the rich interests. and refuse to listen to the people.

It is the duty of every citizen to force the authoritys to take into account the rights of citizens, they will not respect those rights otherwise.

People must enforce their power, and never more so that when a policeman stanger with an ajenda starts asking questions that are not his official business.

Just make sure to refer all questions in writing to a legal counselor before answering. and have that questioner sign them and require justification for the need of each piece of information, just like bush does when congress asks him for an account of himself.

[usmcboltaction]

I have to say I agree 100%. Too many of us expect others to fight for our rights, when we will not do it ourselves. Ultimately, no matter where or who you are, your rights are only yours if you fight for them. If you do not fight for them, you are given them. Given means privileges, not rights.

[Aractus]

[quote="LockNewbie21"]i would imagine it to be the same anywhere.[/quote]I know this has already been stated, but for others: 1. never assume the law it "the same as somewhere else", 2. not every law is related to a police matter; and so general police often do not know about many laws. For a professional opinion either speak to a lawyer who specializes in this area of the law, or carefully read applicable law documents yourself.

[oi_punk]

I have ben picking locks for a little over 4years now. I live in Washington state, i got stopped by a cop,
when i had 1-pick on me. i got a misdemeanor ticket for it i just got it settled thou the courts. i had no intent on using it ,but that didn't matter to the copper. i would suggest not caring picks on your person unless you are a licensed locksmith. a word to the wise