This is the old Locksmith business info area and will be broken down to fill in the new sections below.
by code000187 » 25 Dec 2006 21:37
This is my first actual post so please bear with me.
First off this is a great site. Lots of info.
Second I have a few questions about how I should turn my business. I live in a rural area, under 30,000 people in my county.
Is it viable to buy a Medeco keyway? (I would have to invest $5,000 plus by the cutting machine)
How many of you own your own Medeco keyway and does it work well for your business? <-- If this is too personal or out of bounds on this site please disredard.
Thanks for your replys in advance.
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code000187
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by zeke79 » 25 Dec 2006 21:53
Medeco is very serviceable but limited on options when it comes to integration. That is why I am sold on Primus and Everest Primus by schlage. These high security locks can integrate with standard schlage locks on the same keyway and operate them making it a more viable cost option for buyers.
On the flip side, standard keys will not have the side millings and a slightly different keyway pattern and will not enter the primus locks.
For the best book out there on high security locks and their operation, take a look at amazon.com for High-Security Mechanical Locks An Encyclopedic Reference. Written by our very own site member Greyman! A true 5 Star read!!
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zeke79
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by CVScam » 25 Dec 2006 21:56
I am not a locksmith but I have seen very few Medeco cylinders installed at houses or bussinesses around me. I have seen 1 million dollar+ houses and they had a fancy looking locks on the front door but it will still just a normal Schlage. I always look at the brand of lock cylinder installed whenever I goto a bank or any other bussiness. I see a lot of Best brand and U.S. Lock and even a Defiant cylinder on a front door of a small bank. I think you could find a better way to invest $5,000 in your company.
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CVScam
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by linty » 26 Dec 2006 8:55
scorpion cx-5, like everest and primus is another cheaper alternative which wouldn't require you buying a machine. personally i think this brand is pretty good for bringing key control to the masses at a reasonable price.
and to CVScam, the reason you see these things installed is not because high security locks are pointless is because the locksmiths in your area are poor salesmen. anybody running a bank with a knockoff on their front door clearly doesn't understand what else is out there and why they should have it.
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linty
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by ldnlksmth » 28 Dec 2006 22:14
It's all about the mix: I live in a city of about 400,000 people. A lot of the medeco I sold (don't work for that shop anymore) was about key control and attack resistance. We had another guy in the city, actually lost his dealership (I won't get into the reasons) and we took it over. We had some HUGE contracts including the city (every lock on every door in every building the city owned was our medeco. 15 masters, THOUSANDS of change keys, TENS OF THOUSANDS of those) and it kept us hopping.
A very good friend of mine lives and works in a city of about 30,000 about half an hour from here. He's the only locksmith in the city, and no one likes Medeco there. They don't care about attack resistance so much as key control. (I believe him when he says) about 80% of the businesses in that city (lots of factories, a real blue collar town) use his PEAKES, and a few use his ASSA (he says that those are the big corporations that have offices there and specify it). Less than 1% of his business is Medeco, so he doesn't bother with it anymore.
Bottom line is this: Sell first, buy later. If you can go out and create the interest and sell your initial investment before you make it, I say give 'er. If the interest is weak, try a less expensive route (ASSA, PEAKES, PRIMUS/EVEREST).
and by the way, you don't HAVE to have Medeco's machine to cut their keys. The HPC 1200CM has a card and angles for it, and the HPC blue shark will also do medeco. Neither are as fast or anywhere near as COOL as Medeco's machine, but they do work.
keys, we don't need no stinking keys!
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ldnlksmth
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by code000187 » 28 Dec 2006 22:21
I wanted to thank everyone who posted a reply. You all have given me something to think about.
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code000187
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by ldnlksmth » 30 Dec 2006 23:37
Please don't go into it lightly. It can be a HUGE investment for a small company (my first service truck didn't cost their buy-in). If you can sell it, you will make LOADS. If you can't sell it, it will sink you. plain and simple.
keys, we don't need no stinking keys!
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ldnlksmth
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by ufd538 » 31 Dec 2006 4:55
I will tell you this, we are a smaller company 3 vans, 2 people in the shop We are in NE Ohio, which the economy is not very good, perhaps Ohio's economy rates very low in the US, so that is a factor, but we invested in multi-lock, which is good and bad. multi-lock requires a special machine to make keys, which is bad and good...when the key's patent is up, people still won't make copies, because it will require special machine as others do not. But to tell the truth it is not as profitable as our transponder and sidewinder equipment, but we do have a contractual agreement with AAA. Multi-lock is nice, lifetime guarentee on products except vandalism.
if you do cars, get your eqiupment for that first....if economy goes south, people will not spend for high security locks....but a person must have their car to get to work.
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ufd538
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by HeadHunterCEO » 31 Dec 2006 9:55
think about this
Get some really obscure keyway and sell this to your customers instead.
obscure enough that your average hardware or home improvment store will not stock blacks but not so obscure that you can't get conversion cylinders .
some old skool lockie that passed on did this to me at a marina years ago and i immediately saw the genius in this approach as i scrambled to locate blanks.
Doorologist
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HeadHunterCEO
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by 2octops » 1 Jan 2007 3:05
We have Primus, ASSA and MX from GMS. Each one has it's specific features that can be marketed.
Primus can be mixed into an existing Schlage system and keep the master key systems in tact so that each person only has to have one key. It also has the sidebar which makes them very difficult to pick and the restricted blanks add key control. They also offer IC. Buy in is not cheap.
ASSA offers many of the same except you can not integrate it into most existing master key systems. This means someone will probably end up with 2 keys to have access to everything in a building. The nice thing about ASSA is you can get SFIC so you would not have to install new hardware if the customer already has a SFIC system in place. Buy in is still not cheap.
MX is pretty basic and offers key in knob, rim and mortise cylinders. They are cut on standard Schlage C depth and spacing so they are convient to pin up. They are not high security cylinders, but they do have semi restricted blanks which means key control. There are 9 different keyways and most distributors only have 2 or 3 but try to sell them into different areas. In other words, they should not sell you a MX1 keyway if someone else in your area already has MX1. The cylinders are only around $15 each, so they are cheap enough that most people will not mind spending the money on them for key control. Buy in was around $1200 I think.
I would recomend the MX to start out with so you can offer key control. If you find someone that wants pick resistance, most distributors sell Medeco precoded and can supply keys if you need them.
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2octops
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by ldnlksmth » 1 Jan 2007 15:02
I tend to agree... Attack resistance is a limited sales point in most situations. I would start with a more 'key control' product (Master Edge as an example).
Another way to go is ABLOY. In a large structure (I'm thinking hospital/university) it could be HUGE... one key that will do everything from doors to cabinets to switches...
not a lot of people carry it, and it also requires a special machine, so again with the patent theories...
keys, we don't need no stinking keys!
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ldnlksmth
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by dab » 21 Jan 2007 20:39
what was medeco's original electronic key system. It only ran for about 6 months? I feel sorry for facilities that spent money on that fiasco
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by fsdhy » 21 Jan 2007 21:27
zeke79 wrote:Medeco is very serviceable but limited on options when it comes to integration. That is why I am sold on Primus and Everest Primus by schlage. These high security locks can integrate with standard schlage locks on the same keyway and operate them making it a more viable cost option for buyers.
On the flip side, standard keys will not have the side millings and a slightly different keyway pattern and will not enter the primus locks.
Maybe I am not understanding what you mean by "integration"... But have you ever seen a paper copy of the Medeco '06/'07 product catalogue??? You can basically fit a medeco lock into ANYTHING.
I wouldn't even compare Primus and Medeco. The quality on the Medeco is unmatched by anything Schlage offers. Sure, its got good key control. But its not something I would put on a door that requires HIGH SECURITY. There is a guy in Ottawa who comes down here to peddle Everest Primus to the local school boards. Only one school took him up on his offer. I take about 4-5 calls a month from this school about these locks. FREQUENT LOCKOUTS... the key just doesn't turn the lock anymore... Sorry, I can't help. Other than drill the thing  . Principal/VP/Teacher/Maintenance needs keys copied.... Sorry, you've gotta drive 100km to Ottawa (unless its an emergency, I've had to cast 1 or 2 keys for them in the past).
I don't call it high security, because all you need is ANY key to the system and you can pick ALL locks. Grind down the top bitting and use the bottom half of the key as a tension wrench which takes care of the side bitting.
Frankly, in an area of 30,000 (I live in an area of 55,000 and have noticed this...) I can tell you that YOU SHOULD GO WITH MEDECO. In small regions like ours, there is no need for:
STANDARD SECURITY
KEY CONTROL (Primus)
HIGH SECURITY (Medeco/Abloy)
Basically, if a customer comes in who needs key control just sell them medeco. Thats how I do it. I don't see a reason to go with Everest Primus isntead of Medeco.
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fsdhy
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by zeke79 » 21 Jan 2007 21:55
Yes, you are right. The cylinders will fit into anything out there, but...... You have to buy all medeco cylinders to do so.
With primus, say you have a facility that uses the primus system and also a master keyed system of padlocks also. You can use the primus blank in standard schlage cylinders. With medeco it is all or nothing, there is no integration into lower security or existing lower security systems. This can be a huge sales point for the primus system.
An example is, on my home the key in knobs are a standard schlage cylinder on all doors. Every deadbolt however is equipped with a primus cylinder. This application saved me a few primus cylinders in cost and as long as I use the deadbolts all of the time like I do I still have the key control that the system offers.
For the best book out there on high security locks and their operation, take a look at amazon.com for High-Security Mechanical Locks An Encyclopedic Reference. Written by our very own site member Greyman! A true 5 Star read!!
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zeke79
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by fsdhy » 21 Jan 2007 22:16
zeke79 wrote:Yes, you are right. The cylinders will fit into anything out there, but...... You have to buy all medeco cylinders to do so.
With primus, say you have a facility that uses the primus system and also a master keyed system of padlocks also. You can use the primus blank in standard schlage cylinders. With medeco it is all or nothing, there is no integration into lower security or existing lower security systems. This can be a huge sales point for the primus system.
An example is, on my home the key in knobs are a standard schlage cylinder on all doors. Every deadbolt however is equipped with a primus cylinder. This application saved me a few primus cylinders in cost and as long as I use the deadbolts all of the time like I do I still have the key control that the system offers.
Sure, you make a valid point. However, only a very tiny marketshare has a use for an ENTIRELY Schalge system. I havn't ever seen a business or had a customer that insisted on using all one type of lock. I'm not saying that there is no market for Primus/Everest Primus. All I'm saying is that in a tiny region of 30,000 (or my region of ~60,000), it isn't economically viable. At least around here, they have no problems with Schlage C keyway on most doors, Master 6000B or M1 for most padlocks, seperate Medeco or PEAKS keys for high security padlock applications... and Medeco or PEAKS keys for high security doors...
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fsdhy
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