Not enough pressure to move latch on door

by **drummond52** » 1 Mar 2007 23:02

I work as a maintenance carpenter and am just learning to pick locks, I am at a loss on how I can overcome the following lock picking problem:
The door has panic hardware inside with a handle and thumbpiece outside a mortise cylinder lock that needs the key to turn the lock and pull back the latch but does not unlock the door, it has another mortise cylinder inside that is used to unlock the door, I can pick it alright but my problem is I cannot excert enough pressure to pull back the latch with my picks, is there any tips the members here can provide to help me with this.
Thanks in advance.............................drummond

by **Eyes_Only** » 2 Mar 2007 0:42

Didn't quite get what you were saying but if you meant that you were having trouble turning the lock you can use a screw driver to assist.

by **drummond52** » 2 Mar 2007 1:06

Thanks for the reply, I can pick the lock so the cylinder turns but I cannot put enough pressure on my tension wrench to move the latch out of the strike plate to open the door, I did try a small screwdriver with no luck........................drummond

by **Eyes_Only** » 2 Mar 2007 1:31

Does the latch retract when using a normal key?

by **drummond52** » 2 Mar 2007 1:53

Yes it does.........drummond

by **mercurial** » 2 Mar 2007 2:59

drummond52 wrote:Yes it does.........drummond

Try pushing, pulling or slightly lifting the door whilst applying extra turning force with a screwdriver, once the cylinder is picked. Also, it is so obvious it doesn't really warrant a mention - but I am sure almost all of us have made this mistake in the past - do be sure you are turning the plug in the right direction!!

Often, due to a door being fitted poorly, or due to a building's structure 'settling' over time after being built, doors & their jambs+strikeplates end up out of alignment.

Depending on the nature of this misalignment, either pushing, pulling, lifting etc the door to relieve the binding force exerted upon the bolt by the strikeplate/doorframe. This will allow you to apply enough force to retract the bolt/latch via turning the plug.

A picture of the hardware in question would be very helpful to provide futher advice - it is very hard to provide any other advice without knowing what hardware you are dealing with.

...Mark

by **Eyes_Only** » 2 Mar 2007 2:59

This will take a little bit of work but if you have a set of allen keys you don't mind destroying you can take one that is just a little too big to fit the key way and then file down the top and bottom ( or each side) of the allen key to shape it like a tension wrench and try using that as a turning device. Allen keys are usually made of pretty tough metal so that should work without breaking if you don't file down too much material off of it.

by **Shrub** » 2 Mar 2007 8:31

YOU SHOULD NOT BE PRACTICEING ON CUSTOMERS DOORS!!

You swap your tensdion wrench for somthing stronger as said the screw driver is the best thing in most cases,

It could be an anti pick lock that jams up once the plug rotates and the key isnt in it, you need to see if theres anything in the keyway that the key would normally press in, without the make and model of locks used its hard to work anything out as to what you may be doing wrong or right,

by **drummond52** » 2 Mar 2007 9:29

Thanks for the reply guys, it is a corbit mortise lock.
Shrub as I mentioned I am a maintenance carpenter in this complex and am trying to get in to this one unit without destroying the lock, as the individual locked his key inside.
I will try a few of the suggestions given..................drummond

by **whiteknight38** » 2 Mar 2007 10:30

Panic hardware usually have a rim locks with straight tailpieces, as opposed to mortise locks with cams. It shouldn't matter overmuch, but whichever, is it possible that you are turning in the wrong direction? Or could this be another case of the dreaded "hung pins" scenario?

by **drummond52** » 2 Mar 2007 20:15

Well The problem is solved, mercurial and whiteknight38 you were totally right I was turning the wrong way. a little red faced here but we got it solved, Thanks for the help..................drummond

by **mercurial** » 2 Mar 2007 20:41

drummond52 wrote:Well The problem is solved, mercurial and whiteknight38 you were totally right I was turning the wrong way. a little red faced here but we got it solved, Thanks for the help..................drummond

You're welcome, glad to have been able to help.

And don't be too red-faced - I am sure there are very few(if any) of us who haven't, when learning, been baffled by a lock that wont open once picked, only to find it had been turned in the wrong direction.

Stick with your learning, it is a fascinating hobby, and likely a useful additional skill to have as a carpenter. As Shrub said, though, do beware of 'learning' on a customer's door - there are some locks, as he mentioned that will jam up (some to the extent that they must be drilled out), if the key isn't present when the plug is turned.

The trap-pins in M&C Antiklop cylinders are a prime example of this. And this is only one of many problems you could encounter.

Turning a plug in some dimple locks without the keyway being 'filled' by the key, or something else(hope that doesn't verge on advanced material), can result in pins and springs flying out of the lock in a way that has to be seen to be believed!

...Mark

by **drummond52** » 2 Mar 2007 22:15

Thank you for the advice mercurial, most of the locks we have at work are basic and thats the only place I will be using this handy skill.
I have another question could you or someone provide or direct me to where I can find out the schlage cut depths for the code 31512, thank you.........................drummond

by **mercurial** » 3 Mar 2007 23:04

I have another question could you or someone provide or direct me to where I can find out the schlage cut depths for the code 31512, thank you....

Here is the depth and space information for Schlage cylinders, you can work out the depths(and appropriate spacing) for any bitting to code-cut a schlage key from this :

Code: Select all: SHOULDER TO FIRST CUT: .231'' CENTER TO CENTER: .156'' MACS: 7 ROOT BOTTOM MASTER DEPTH PINS PINS ----- ------ ------ # 0 .335 .165 # 1 .320 .180 # 2 .305 .195 .030 # 3 .290 .210 # 4 .275 .225 .060 # 5 .260 .240 # 6 .245 .255 .090 # 7 .230 .270 # 8 .215 .285 .120 # 9 .200 .300

Please be aware that root depth refers to the measurement from the bottom of the cut to the bottom of the keyblank, rather than the 'depth' of the cut from the top of the blank to the bottom of the cut.

Hope that helps,

...Mark

by **drummond52** » 4 Mar 2007 2:32

Thank you mercuria, Thats exactly what I needed...........drummond

Not enough pressure to move latch on door

Not enough pressure to move latch on door

Schlage depth and spacing.

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