Practice Lock question.

by **Jow** » 26 Feb 2007 2:31

After receiving a shipment of Zekes locks (see: buy and sell forum) i decided to turn one into a cutaway to help some friends that are getting interested in lockpicking.

the lock is below:

Now i can actually see the pins i have a question from something that arose....

when i can see that the pins are all at the sheer line (as in where they should be in order to open the lock) the lock still doesn't open. In order to open it i lightly rake it with a rake or just the tip of the hook. Now i can't work out why this is happening?

Surely if all the pins are at the sheer point they should open the lock? sometimes i have to give other locks a quick scrub to open them after SPP them but i always assumed this was because a pin was not quite set. I am sure that they are all at the sheer point in this case but it still needs to be scrubbed? Perhaps this is what is happening to the others that i have to open like this?

any info would be great!

by **nekret** » 26 Feb 2007 3:34

I've noticed this happens to me sometimes due to the tension wrench dragging on the sleeve or 1~2 pins are a hair off the sheer line (usually raking will fix that). Other than that you might want to try lubricating it and see if you get some better results.

by **nekret** » 26 Feb 2007 3:40

Also, what's up with the second chamber from the face? It looks like the spring is too short to contact the top pin. If I was ever suspicious of an over-set pin it would be in a chamber without any spring pressure.

by **Jow** » 26 Feb 2007 3:54

Second chamber has spring pressure... its ust an illusion similar to that of the last chamber.......

Perhaps i will put some new pins in it and see how that goes.....

by **nekret** » 26 Feb 2007 4:35

that's an interesting effect, it looks like there's nothing between a small portion of the spring and the top pin. For extra sloppiness/debugging you could also replace the top pins with short, blunt bottom pins. this will effectively turn any cylinder into a Kwikset but it's great for doing quick demos.

As for new pins that's a great idea. My Russwin that I got from zeke had some minor damage to the bottom pins (bumping/snap gun/epg I guess) and had a few burs on them. Not to say that this was unsuspected from used locks, just made picking it a little harder :-)

.

by **Jow** » 26 Feb 2007 7:23

Ah, i see the effect you are talking about now... you can actually see the top and bottom pins in the second stack..... It does look like there is a HUGE gap although that is actually the top pin.

by **Jow** » 26 Feb 2007 7:32

Jow wrote:Ah, i see the effect you are talking about now... you can actually see the top and bottom pins in the second stack..... It does look like there is a HUGE gap although that is actually the top pin.

Disregard that post... im going to have to look at the original to work out whats actually going on there.....

On another note, is there an easy way to remove the strip retainer that caps the top of the pin stacks in a manner that allows you to replace it?

by **raimundo** » 26 Feb 2007 10:16

you don't show the retainer strip, but it is possible that it is one of the removable type, you need a hacksaw blade or a three inch piece of one, you set this along the top of the brass strip, with the teeth facing toward the rear of the cylinder, then with a small hammer, tap the corner of the hacksaw blade near the front of the cylinder. Use a diagonal hammer swing so that the taps set the teeth of the hacksaw blace into the brass, and then drive the brass out of the groove at the deep end of the cylinder,
It may not be this type of brass cap, as I cannot see it in the photos, but likely it is.

by **zeke79** » 26 Feb 2007 10:38

nekret wrote:that's an interesting effect, it looks like there's nothing between a small portion of the spring and the top pin. For extra sloppiness/debugging you could also replace the top pins with short, blunt bottom pins. this will effectively turn any cylinder into a Kwikset but it's great for doing quick demos.

As for new pins that's a great idea. My Russwin that I got from zeke had some minor damage to the bottom pins (bumping/snap gun/epg I guess) and had a few burs on them. Not to say that this was unsuspected from used locks, just made picking it a little harder .

That is odd.. I will say that I have never used a pick gun of any sort on them. It is possible it was a high traffic lock which caused the wear while in use.

If you would like a replacement lock just let me know.

by **nice7175** » 26 Feb 2007 12:30

when i can see that the pins are all at the sheer line (as in where they should be in order to open the lock) the lock still doesn't open. In order to open it i lightly rake it with a rake or just the tip of the hook. Now i can't work out why this is happening?

the same thing happens to me almost everytime on the kwiksets i've been practicing on.

by **nekret** » 26 Feb 2007 17:17

Zeke, don't worry about replacing the lock I had some spare pins that I loaded into it. I guess the damage to the pins could have been from high traffic (indicative of the small indentation at the top of the keyway, though it could also be from bumping), but it would have had to be *a lot* of traffic or just a lock that was in use for many years.

by **nekret** » 26 Feb 2007 17:22

nice7175, I've noticed this behavior on a few kwiksets and I think a slightly different thing is happening. Since the top/bottom pins are beveled (sometimes not very well and as a result have nicks/burs in the bevel) where they contact, the top or bottom pins can get stuck at the bevel and cause the lock to rotate only a very small amount. I had this same dilemma with one of my kwiksets and found that I could just crank up the tension every once and a while and if the pins were approximately at shear (including the bevel) it would pop open.

by **SmokieD** » 2 Mar 2007 22:48

I would remove a few pins and pick it like that to see if it opens with like that if you havent already done that.

I take it your lock turns when it is completely empty.

I had trouble turning a lock once i had picked, but it was rusted so I had to turn it with a small screwdriver instead of a tension wrench. The tension wrench wasnt strong enough to turn it.

by **SmokieD** » 2 Mar 2007 22:53

In addition,

The lock I had trouble with, when i removed all the pins and springs it would turn easily, could turn it with a fingernail. If your lock isnt rusted there could be a fragmented piece of metal or metals stuck inbetween the plug. Just a thought.

by **raimundo** » 6 Mar 2007 10:38

If the lock is old or has been used roughly it can have a broken spring, and this becomes a real problem when the end of that spring starts burrowing into the cylinder between the cylinder and the plug. the spring becomes pulled out and jammed tight so that sometimes all you can do is just making it worse. this is fairly rare, and I hope you don't have this problem,

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