sargent locks

[darrel.h]

Hello all,

I have been trying to pick a sargent deadbolt for about a week right now. when I apply tension, only one of the pins bind. As I apply more tension, all the pins still move freely instead of binding as they should. I am wondering if I am doing anything wrong. Any help would be greatly appriciated.

darrel

[undeadspacehippie]

The same thing happens on my sargent lock - I'm not sure if this is a public forum topic.

[Shrub]

Sounds like your false setting a security pin but that would mean they are a very sloppy lock imho

Im not too familier with the locks so ill let one of the others take over.

[darrel.h]

I don't think it is a security pin because the pin moves exactly the same regardless of tension. I can push the pin all the way up with or without tension so I doubt that it is a security pin.

[pinsetter]

From my experience, and this is not from a Sargent lock, I'd say that most likely you've run into a serrated pin and do not have it correctly set. Serrated pins will hang and make you believe they have set correctly when thay have not. They don't have the difference in diameter that a spool pin has so a false set on a serrated pin is very hard to detect by plug movement. Keep playing with that 1 pin that is hanging until other pins do eventually bind. If you have 1 pin binding hard and no others binding the problem lies in that 1 pin that you're fighting. When you get that one correctly set other pins should then bind.

[darrel.h]

Well, I think there is a serrated pin but they all move exactly the same way with or without tension. They remain just as smooth regardless of tension.

[pinsetter]

Make sure your tension wrench is not digging into the cylinder wall. Sometimes I've had this happen and it ended up being the tension wrench was biting into the cylinder wall at the bottom of the keyway. When that happens you'll think you're applying torque to the plug when in reality you're only binding the wrench. Then, the more force you apply to obtain binding pins, the harder you hang the wrench on the cylinder wall.

If that is not the answer, then I stick to my thinking that you're not corrrectly identifying the first binding pin and not getting it set correctly.

[illusion]

If it's a 6 pin Sargent then I can tell you it's very standard - I raked one open today in 30 secs. I guess it may be something special, but other than dimple locks, I think Sargent just make standard pin cylinders.

[pinsetter]

I found the same thing with my 6 pin Sargent. I only got it yesterday and had it single pin picked within 20 seconds. It had no security pins and actually had a very profound binding. The only thing I noticed on mine was that the very back pin had to be set first before any of the other pins would bind. It was actually a very easy lock to open, and was just as easy picked in either direction.

[Octillion]

You raked open the Sargent I sent you? I don't generally practice raking, but if I were to try raking one of them, I would more than likely overset some pins and get nowhere. Maybe I'm just not good at raking.

BTW, what did you use to rake with, and how much torque?

[illusion]

You raked open the Sargent I sent you? I don't generally practice raking, but if I were to try raking one of them, I would more than likely overset some pins and get nowhere. Maybe I'm just not good at raking.

BTW, what did you use to rake with, and how much torque?

Yeah - I used the thickest twist-flex tensioner, and used the No.5 standard hook from the Falle pick set.

I used medium tension, and gently altered the ammount (bounced) untill I felt it open.

I have recently started lacking interest in SPP, and this has sent my skills in that area downhill...

The Sargent locks are nicely made, and the tollerances make them hard to spp... although my spp sucks so much right now, it may just be my poor skills.

If you overset some pins reduce the torque franctionaly untill you feel the pins slide down - I can't explain what it feels since you can just feel the overset pin drop down.

[cxseven]

Has anyone here encountered a 7 pin Sargent lock before? I've counted the pins with my pick several times now to be sure, since it seems that searches on this site and google don't turn up many locks like this.

I'm also having the same problem as mentioned earlier in this thread: it seems that sometimes there is no binding pin. Are there tricks for binding these locks such as using a double sided tensioner? Raking this lock only gives me success when I have no more than four pins in it.

Another Sargent I have, a 6 pin, I sprayed some WD40 in and it seems to bind just fine..

[cxseven]

I meant raking of the 6 pin Sargent works when there's no more than 4 pins in it. I haven't opened up the 7 pin Sargent yet, since I want to pick it in pristine form if possible first

[maxxed]

I service three buildings that have 7 pin Sargent locks so yes they exist

[cxseven]

I gave up and disassembled this 7 pin Sargent yesterday and, interestingly, the 7th pin goes through a core change sleeve.

Unfortunately the pins shot out across the carpet while I was disassembling so I can't answer this myself:

I'm wondering if it were possible to somehow tension only the core change sleeve, would it then be possible to pick the core out of the lock by manipulating only that 7th pin?

Here are some pictures of this sleeve in case any of you haven't seen one:


Here is the plug with the sleeve on it

Here is the assembled core with the sleeve in the unlocked position.

Here is the little tab that rotates out into the cylinder to prevent the core from being extracted without the control key.

It looks like Sargent requires that the control bit positions always are keyed to a higher number for the control keys than for any other keys - http://www.sargentlock.com/file_broker.php?document_id=2108 . If this is the case, then I guess a pin segment longer than the passageway through the sleeve is always present in the sleeve.

So it looks like my idea isn't possible but I'd like to put it out here to see if I got it right or if there are some better ideas for tricking this sleeve.