Key machine adjustment. Too deep or too shallow?

[WOT]

Ideally, you want the original and duplicate to be dead on, to the thousandth, but if it can't be ideal, would you favor slightly too deep or too shallow and why?

My machine cuts makes cuts that are 4-5 thousandth too high and it makes keys that are difficult to turn.

[zeke79]

Personally, I dont mind either way. I will give you a helfull tip and say use a blank with a wide blade thickness and a flat back on the blade such as kwikset. Your resusts will be more consistant this way than if you use say a schlage blank becuase the back of them has a slight curve and a very small flat.

[Shrub]

The lower ones will work in the lock and the higher ones allow a file to bring them down to correct height so its swings and roundabouts really,

I dont see quite how you cant get it dead on though, is somthing moveing or are you not setting it up right?

A common problem is machines that use a threaded rod with a handle on the end or even just a grub screw to clamp the stylus in place, once over tightened a mark is left on the stylus body and it becomes hard to clamp again at a slightly differant position as the thread will always try to move the stylus back to the place where it seats in the mark again,

WHen it gets to very small tolerance its simply not even worth thinking about but if the locks are stiff its quite out really,

[Shrub]

Out of interest how do you set it so its cutting right?

[WOT]

The lower ones will work in the lock and the higher ones allow a file to bring them down to correct height so its swings and roundabouts really,

I dont see quite how you cant get it dead on though, is somthing moveing or are you not setting it up right?

A common problem is machines that use a threaded rod with a handle on the end or even just a grub screw to clamp the stylus in place, once over tightened a mark is left on the stylus body and it becomes hard to clamp again at a slightly differant position as the thread will always try to move the stylus back to the place where it seats in the mark again,

WHen it gets to very small tolerance its simply not even worth thinking about but if the locks are stiff its quite out really,

Mine has a groove in the stylus and a screw with a brim that fits into the groove for positioning it.

You push in the stylus and unscrew the screw until "both blanks are touching", then you tighten down the set screw for the stylus, which can move the stylus ever slightly. It's not too easy to set it to be accurate to be within 1/1000".

Slightly too deep would ordinarily allow for smooth working key, but since I work with icores often, which is hard to grip and requires unusual level of accuracy, I have mine set to mill slightly shallow, then file down to be within 1/1000" of factory specs manually.

[Shrub]

Mines simular to that and it took me ages to get it right,

I didnt realise icores were so tight, i guess i have an easier life with lever locks and simple keys,

It did take me a few blanks to cut my first ava key though,

[jonj]

What I would use is 3 blanks of the same type have one in the guide then cut 2 of it then put the 2 in the machine and go by sound you can here when it cuts off to much.
I do it this way as the blanks can be inacurate

[Shrub]

I use two surface ground bars

[WOT]

What I would use is 3 blanks of the same type have one in the guide then cut 2 of it then put the 2 in the machine and go by sound you can here when it cuts off to much.
I do it this way as the blanks can be inacurate

Why not just measure it out with a caliper? You might be able to make a rough adjustment, but for the type of keys I work with (Best ICORE), allowable error is 1/1000" for smooth operation.

1/1000" = 0.025mm

[SlingsVaqueros]

You may want to keep in mind that the cutting wheels are ever so slightly not round. Due to the machineing process that makes the cutting wheels, just like the machines that make lock parts, there are small imperfections that leave the cutting wheels slightly less than a perfect circle. If you load a couple of KW1 blanks in the vice jaws, you7 should be able to turn the cutting wheel manually backwards and get intermittant contact on a well calibrated machine. This will show that the "highest points" of the cutting wheel are contacting the key and give you the tightest calibration. If the cutting wheel makes a deep grinding sound, the stylus needs to be adjusted to give more "breathing room" for the cutting wheel. If you get no contact while reversing the cutting wheel, you are too far and the stylus needs to be set further back.

After I have calibrated a cutting machine, I try to test it with a Honda or Acura ignition key. I have found that these cars have some of the tightest tolerances in auto's. Make sure to test in the door first as a miscut Honda/Acura key can get stuck in the ignition and won't easily come back out. Again, always test in the door of the car before you try the ignition. If the key doesn't work well in the door, do not try it in the ignition!!

I hope this helps.

[UWSDWF]

I like a nice set of pants

[SlingsVaqueros]

I like a nice set of pants

Huh? Did I miss something?

[ponsaloti]

why would any-one choose to cut all there keys too deep or too shallow?

[mercurial]

why would any-one choose to cut all there keys too deep or too shallow?

Nobody wants to cut a key to deep or too shallow (well unless they're cutting a 999 key to make into a bump-key, they might want to cut a bit deeper then).

The point being made is that NO key cutter, no matter how accurately you try to calibrate it, can be PERFECTLY aligned.

The same principle that makes locks pickable (manufacturing tolerances), applies to key cutters (there are manufacturing tolerances in the cutting wheels, the mechanism used to adjust and secure the stylus etc).

Just like you'll never get a lock with the pin-chambers drilled in a perfectly straight line, you'll never get a 'perfectly' made key cutter that you can set absolutely perfectly - that simply isn't possible. There is always going to be some margin of error, no matter how miniscule.

You can take great care, and with a well designed cutter, get it so close to perfect that it doesn't matter.

The question being asked here, is that given a cutter isn't calibrated perfectly, would it be better to have it cutting a little too high, or a little too low? In this context we're only talking a few thousandths of an inch too high or low.

I don't have the key cutting experience to offer any real world advice as to whether being calibrated a little too high, or a little too low being better on the job.

What occurs to me is, that whilst keys cut a little low will still work smoothely in general(as compared to keys cut too high), you cannot add meat back onto the blade of a key - once it is cut too low, it is permanent (unless you want to peen it(dodgy), or waste the blank and start again.

Whereas, if you are a cutting little too high, a few strokes with a file, and a good set of calipers will finish the job and produce a key that works smoothely. I'd rather do that than try to peen a cut to make it higher, and file it back to the correct height!

So I'd say cutting a little high, and filing down for the BEST cores would be easier, given they have such tight tolerances - once too much is cut away, you cannot put it back - but you can always file/cut away more.

...Mark

[raimundo]

Original poster said his machine was off by four to five thousands, that is enough to significantly affect the function of a key. various things to consider, the cutting wheel, as someone said you can put a blank in the stylus jaw and a blank in the cutting jaw and hand turn the cutter and see that it will either intermittently cut on the blank or it could cut all the way, which would need adjustment, or it could not cut at all, also needs adjustment. about the roundness of the cutter, there are also the tolerances that allow you to put the cutter on the armature without press fitting, perhaps a thousand of an inch there, Some old machines have been dropped or otherwise mishandled, an armature can be very slightly bent, on some machines, older ones, the two jaws may have become misaligned,

for a case by case fix when cutting keys, you can adjust the machine slightly by putting a bit of cardboard like a business card, around the bottom of the key being cut to make the cuts coming off the cutter jaw deeper, or to make them shallower, you put the cardboard under the blank in the cutter jaw. obviouly, the thickness of paper you use will relate to the degree of the problem you are adjusting.