High security locks and lockout calls

[Shrub]

How does a neophyte know whether it a high security 'non-pickable' lock?

Lock ID is one of the most important factors of working as a lockie,

If you dont know what a high security lock is you shouldnt be trading,

There are people who dont stop to find out and simply take the drill to the door when getting out the truck but the normal thing to do is to simply at least try for some period of time to pick it,

If you know you can pick lock type X in useually X amount of time you allow yourself double that and then start thinking of other ways, if the time it takes you to pick the lock in ideal conditions is longer than is ecconically sound to do on the job you would have to consider the alternitive options,

The differance in a good lockie and a bad one as far as door opening goes is skill in opening the locks and those that are best are the ones who practise and practise on old used locks as well as new locks,

There are people drilling locks out that can be icked quicker than it takes to drill them properly,

Weve seen the drilled kwiksets and yales and its purley down to lack of skill, theres a pick and technique for most locks out there and if a certain lock is rie in your area that you have previously needed to drill then theres no excuse for not buying a load of said locks and then looking into how to pick them, what tools are out there to pick them and what works best then simply invest the time and money into being able to effectively and efficiently pick those locks in the future,

At least thats how i do it except i get the locks and practice before i meet one on the dor and have to murder it,

As regarss the MTL's go there are specific tools you can buy for most keyways and reportedly work well, there i also the bumping fad to try out if you get stuck which is again a lot quicker than drilling them,

Lets NOT get into the MTL bumping thing here and no global were not intertested in the bilocks bollocks either,

[arris]

some interesting stuff in this thread,

but to as to picking, most of the time if your called out keys have been lost or something, so they will want to change the lock anyway, so picking it is pointless, as if other people have keys normally they will get them to let them in instead of paying the cost to get a locksmith out..

[Shrub]

Well as i say arris, i can pick a Yale quicker than you can drill it so which is the most ecconmical?

Drill a perfectly working lock that could just be rekeyed if its one you dont stock, destroy a drill bit possably on anti drill measures and thats all after getting the drill out the van, unwinding the extension lead if useing mains, explaining to the owner that the reason your destroying their lock is because you cant pick it or in the case of a lever lock destroying their door because of incompetance,

Or walk up to the lock with picks, open it in quick time and let the owner in while you decide what your doing with the lock,

Quite often here the keys are long gone in fields somewhere so no-one is goign to find them and find where they fit so a new key is often just made for the owner keeping new locks out of it, or in a lever lock a new lever pack and set of keys,

Arris, im supprised your in the uk on this site and still drilling things, we dont like that here and youve got a fight on your hands if you think you can argue that drilling is better in any circumstance other than a broken lock,

I can count the locks on one hand that ive drilled in the last 3 years and each one had to be drilled as no other option at the time could be found,

1 x Puegeot 106cc boot lock (lost keys, no other way)
1 x ERA Profit (lock pumped with fibre glass resin and left to set)
2 x ERA invincibles (same job, owner tearing building down but lost keys, owner had tried breaking in with a spade and damaged both locks)

Ive NEVER drilled a cylinder even for practice, that said ive never come up against one that ive failed to pick on the job (i do have some at home ive yet to pick though ),

Im not getting into the whole drilling argument yet again here but dont try to justify drilling locks to a forum full of lockpickers and NDE locksmiths, you will never win,

Ps, not having a go, i actually quite like you arris

[srm]

new locksmiths have to start sowewhere. where does one gain the lock ID knowledge? What level of knowledge do you think is needed to start trading?

How does a neophyte know whether it a high security 'non-pickable' lock?

Lock ID is one of the most important factors of working as a lockie,

If you dont know what a high security lock is you shouldnt be trading,

There are people who dont stop to find out and simply take the drill to the door when getting out the truck but the normal thing to do is to simply at least try for some period of time to pick it,

If you know you can pick lock type X in useually X amount of time you allow yourself double that and then start thinking of other ways, if the time it takes you to pick the lock in ideal conditions is longer than is ecconically sound to do on the job you would have to consider the alternitive options,

The differance in a good lockie and a bad one as far as door opening goes is skill in opening the locks and those that are best are the ones who practise and practise on old used locks as well as new locks,

There are people drilling locks out that can be icked quicker than it takes to drill them properly,

Weve seen the drilled kwiksets and yales and its purley down to lack of skill, theres a pick and technique for most locks out there and if a certain lock is rie in your area that you have previously needed to drill then theres no excuse for not buying a load of said locks and then looking into how to pick them, what tools are out there to pick them and what works best then simply invest the time and money into being able to effectively and efficiently pick those locks in the future,

At least thats how i do it except i get the locks and practice before i meet one on the dor and have to murder it,

As regarss the MTL's go there are specific tools you can buy for most keyways and reportedly work well, there i also the bumping fad to try out if you get stuck which is again a lot quicker than drilling them,

Lets NOT get into the MTL bumping thing here and no global were not intertested in the bilocks bollocks either,

[Sbecspeledrx]

new locksmiths have to start sowewhere. where does one gain the lock ID knowledge? What level of knowledge do you think is needed to start trading?

You'll have to answer the second question yourself. But for cylinders get a catalouge from a decent lock wholesaler. Looking through that will give you an idea of what's what.

As for mortice ID. I have a pile of locks on the bench in my shop for picking practice, which I see every day. Give a good feel for what a mortice lock is. But in my area it's usually one of Union, ERA, Securefast and Chubb.

Union security and the BS locks are red, the rebadged ones are all sortsd of colours grey, brown and so on. But after you've ID'ed the much more common reds 5 or 6 times, you'll recognise the others.

ERA's round here still have the dimples either side of the keyway, securefast are blue or black with a fatter curtain, and on the older model the curtain turns all the way without a key.

Chubb, buy one, look at it, memorise it and then fear it - until you get a pin and cam

[Shrub]

I cant add much to that other than my own experiance,

Im not sure if its still run but i think Ken at Justlocks ran a mortice lock id course that was maybe a day if not 2, i heard good reports from it but have no idea if its still run,

Personally i bought a few of each lock i could get my hands on, if i saw one on ebay i didnt have i would buy it,

You need all these locks anyway so you can practise picking them and making tools for them,

The start measureing up, theres loads of things you can do for mortice id including the height of the keyhole, bolt position, colour, gauge, curtain colour etc,
Take a picture of each of your locks with the cover off and on and also measure up your drill points,
Print them all off and you have your own id chart but to be honest i only got halway through mine before i started recconiseing the differant traits of each lock and no longer needed it,

I stated a dichomous key and once you get halway through one of them you know the ins and outs of most locks lol


As regards cylinders, they are very easy, most wrk in the normal way either upside down or right way up and then all you have to worry about is the high security ones but most of those are easily identifieable or have the name on the front of them,
As regards highsecurity cylinders you have to decide how good you are at picking them and whether you need to be looking for specific tools to open them or are you just gogin to drill?

Its obvious to see if the lock works in the normal fashion so if you come across somthing differant are you good enough at picking to have a go? will you pick a MTL on the door having not done it before? doubtful, you can have a mess around with bum keys or get the drill out because if youve never picked something like that your not gogin to do it on the door,
You need to have a look around your area and see what types of locks there are as regards cylinders and maybe even keep a tally so you know what to practice on most, see what key the local cutters sell most of,

But cylinder id isnt really somthing ive ever bothered about, being on here you see the high security ones and any other is just a case of picking it, if you use a EPG its even less of a worry knowing what lock it is or not,

As regards how much lock id you need before trading?

Mortice locks you must know it all or at least the common locks in your area, but having said that it doesnt really bother me as i mostly walk to the door and stick the cb pick in without looking through the keyhole, its gfar easier to just feel the lock and open it without worring that youve got such a lock or such a lever type etc, ive popped alsorts of locks on the door thinking they were rubbish things only to find out a decent bs lock once open,

As regards cylinder id?

I dont think its important unless you use bum keys to open doors, if you use bum keys then its critical otherwise you know what a MTL looks like and know things like dom have the name on etc, you soon recconise the various 'differant' locks but if your in a small area you may only find one or two types of 'differant' lock,

A pin tumbler is picked the same just as a lever lock is so if your a purest and only pick you can walk up to any lock with tools and stick them in with out neededing to know what lock is what unless its hig security cylinders and then you will need to know about special pins or extra pins etc etc but you can soon get used to knowing what it is as your walking up to the door,

Gone round in circles a bit i think but i hope its of some help,

[toomush2drink]

Im quite happy to admit i drilled out 2 MTL lock cylinders the other day. There was no way i was going to pick them quickly and the customer didnt have keys to them or even wanted them as a tenant had placed them on the doors without permission. A carbide milling bit was used and did the job in no time. Didnt cost me anything in way of drill bits and was a lot quicker than picking in this instance.
One happy regular customer (who is used to seeing me pick things) and a job that met the customers not my ego. Its easy to get caught up in trying to pick a lock to massage your own ego but if the customer doesnt care then its their needs you have to meet after all they are the ones paying for a service.

[ponsaloti]

A couple of weeks ago a fella came out of a sports center and broke his laser key in the ign of his newish vauxhall omega, he messed around for about an hour, pushed the bit to the bottom of the barrel in frustration and then phoned me.
I worked on it with the paterson removal kit & picks for about 2 hours, all in the rain, no joy, I couldnt get the bit out or barrel where i needed it, waffers were jammed out.
About 11.30, the tossers in there corsas started to wiz about so the car had to be made mobil so, I had to drill it. Not a nice feeling but it was my only option. Customer got home and i guess he had the main agent slap his arse with the repair, I didnt hear from the p..ck again.
P.S I must say the removal kit had no chance

[ponsaloti]

I know the above is slightly off subject but iI needed to let it out.

[Shrub]

Although it goes against the theory of nde lockie work it remains fact that most 'high security' cylinders will be drilled even if you can pick them on the bench, its simply not ecconomical to do otherwise,

[LockNewbie21]

No worries about the car lock, my buddy had a chevy cavalier his g/f's i believe it was.

Had a snare, and just needed to wedge the door a bit and the fool i asked to just hold it dropped it in the car.

So out came the 24 hammer drill and open

It was a bit of a dissapointment, but again picking wasn't really an option because it was a GM 8 cut lock.

After it was all said and done, and i felt bad, the girl said I should have drilled it first because her DADDY would just replace it


As for high security locks, i think drilling is a main option as well, we all picked our share of grade 1's but honestly on a door or even a vice on your bench the feels 100% diffrent.

I always look for a sliding glass door if it does nto ahve a track guard a they usually only have waffers, of use a slim jim and grab the sliding bolt on a cellar door, theres always another way.

[Jryanruch]

I was recently called to a job where the previous tenant had locked the door and vacated a retail space, leaving a medeco biaxial mortise cylinder in the door. The Property Mgmt rep says, "Oh, sorry, I forgot to tell you it was medeco when I called.. I hope that isn't a problem." He had customers waiting to see the suite standing over my shoulder wanting to see how we open High Security locks.. I had to tell them to bugger off so I could go to work on it, and thankfully they did.

Fortunately this one didn't have to be drilled (apparently the previous tenants didn't believe in security beyond key control), but as said before, I would never waste time trying to pick a medeco in the field. Just have a fresh kit of cheap drill bits set aside for the occasions.

Even if a high security lock is pickable/bypassable it is bad for business to reveal that to customers who have paid a premium for a lock that 'cannot be compromised.' Attempting to compromise these locks undermines the whole shabang. Most of our customers expect 1/2 hour - 1 hour of destructive entry when their high security keys go missing, and that is a good thing. It reaffirms that the locks they have purchased are difficult to get into, even for a skilled professional.

[bumpit]

1/2 hour - 1 hour of destructive entry when their high security keys go missing

Has anyone ever encountered a Drum Geminy Sheild(Abloy) in the feild. I would be tempted to just walk away if I ever saw one

[New-York-Locksmith]

walking away is ok - not all jobs are worth the struggle...

[Schuyler]

Even if a high security lock is pickable/bypassable it is bad for business to reveal that to customers who have paid a premium for a lock that 'cannot be compromised.' Attempting to compromise these locks undermines the whole shabang. Most of our customers expect 1/2 hour - 1 hour of destructive entry when their high security keys go missing, and that is a good thing. It reaffirms that the locks they have purchased are difficult to get into, even for a skilled professional.

That sounds a bit off, to be honest. If the lock is pickable/bypassable and you're the fellow who sold it, drilling it out in order that the customer continues to believe it's more secure than it is...well, like I said, it seems a bit off. This is security through obscurity again.