Buying Picks in Canada

[Pintumbler]

hey guys,

well im 15 years old, im pretty handy, im currently building a pick set out of carbon-steel blades with my dremel, im curious as to where i could go to pick up some picks, haha, and if its legal to buy them, would a locksmith sell some to me, or would i have to befreind him?. i have picked my friends side door before and i would love to get into it as a hobby, my location is Toronto, Ontario, Canada. or would it be advisable to purchase online? and what to look for,
thanks to those who reply in advance,

[Krypos]

try checking out the new users start here page. its everywhere. and it has the answers to all of your questions.

additionally, instead of telling us where you are, you can submit your location into your profile and it will show below your name always. just look at the profile page.

good luck!

[psyk0s1s]

there are tons of places to buy lock picks on the internet. i really dont recommed trying to buy picks from a locksmith because some might think of you as a criminal. also it may be illegal in canada. you will have to look through your laws in order to find out if they are legal or not.

[MacGyver101]

also it may be illegal in canada.

Pintumbler says that he lives in Ontario; basic lock picks are not restricted there. I have successfully ordered picks from the States into Toronto, and had no problems... but, as with anything that Customs deems to be in a "grey" area, your milage may vary.

One tip: if you're looking to buy cheap beginner locks, Canadian Tire sells Guardian-brand replacement rim cylinders for $5 or $6 CDN (usually stocked near their deadbolts, etc.). They're pretty low quality, but good for getting your confidence up while starting out.

[unlisted]

Seeing as you are from Toronto, you can legally own picks.

Now with that being said, you should NEVER leave home WITH them. Leave your picks at home. I have friends who work for Toronto Police, and they are more than happy to charge anyone who is NOT a locksmith, if they find them. I know someone who had them in their vehicle, went through a RIDE check, (they were in plain sight, passenger seat) got charged, and convicted. (posession of B & E tools) The onus is on you to prove that you have not ever done anything illegal. (good luck, he couldn't, I wouldn't be able to either)

I also own picks, and I work for the government. I leave mine at home also, the only time they leave my house is when I need them for work (which is almost never) and when I am going to a LSI meeting.

Also, your age, if ever caught with picks would make it really difficult to explain, its just a hobby.

I would recommend buying online, but get your parents to buy for you. If you are realy good with a dremel, you will have no reason to buy online.

Not trying to scare you off, just letting you know how Toronto works with us hobbyists. (which is not too well)

[Hardliner]

I know someone who had them in their vehicle, went through a RIDE check, (they were in plain sight, passenger seat) got charged, and convicted. (posession of B & E tools) The onus is on you to prove that you have not ever done anything illegal. (good luck, he couldn't, I wouldn't be able to either)

That is absurd, and as a great man once said: "if the law says that, then the law is a ass." (the other term for donkey )

No offense, but I have a very, very hard time accepting that the legal system would require someone to prove that they have never done anything illegal in their entire life under any circumstances whatsoever. It just doesn't make any sense -- you cannot prove a negative. The lawyer that defended your acquiantance should be sued for malpractice and disbarred if that is what he advised his client.

[unlisted]

I know someone who had them in their vehicle, went through a RIDE check, (they were in plain sight, passenger seat) got charged, and convicted. (posession of B & E tools) The onus is on you to prove that you have not ever done anything illegal. (good luck, he couldn't, I wouldn't be able to either)

That is absurd, and as a great man once said: "if the law says that, then the law is a donkey." (the other term for donkey )

No offense, but I have a very, very hard time accepting that the legal system would require someone to prove that they have never done anything illegal in their entire life under any circumstances whatsoever. It just doesn't make any sense -- you cannot prove a negative. The lawyer that defended your acquiantance should be sued for malpractice and disbarred if that is what he advised his client.

That is basically what the Judge said. You have to be able to prove you will not do anything illegal with them. (nor that you are predisposed to [or have ever done] any illegal activity) Its that once a criminal, always a criminal mentality. (it SUCKS!) Thats why I recommend you keep them at home, and don't carry them around. Unless, as someone else mentioned in another post, you prefer to try to pick those nice, shiny bracelets.

Go and ask a lawyer, a cop and a judge. When you ask the lawyer, make sure you ask him what COULD happen, not just what the law says.

I know what the law says, and that lockpicks in Ontario is Legal, that doesn't mean they won't try to nail you with a posession of B & E charge, or something else. This is the reason you have to goto a speciality store to buy picks. Even than, you will still have a hard time to buy them. (they want you to have a locksmith certification/course, or official proof you have a legal use for them) Pepper spray is legal in Ontario also, but again you can barely find that.

Heres another example: another person I know got the same charge, (plus a concealed weapons charge) for having a flat head screwdriver under his car seat, within reach. He used it to tinker with his old car, when the belt started squealing. Yes, it was thrown out, but he was still charged. Even when charges are thrown out, there is still a record on your CPIC file. That can cause alot of other problems. (bonding)

Anyways, what are you going to do? Walk around with picks all the time, "looking" for a lock to pick? If thats the case, you should not own picks, because you will not own that lock you find to pick. Also, trust me on this, don't go around showing off to all your friends, or you'll get a visit from the police, and they'll investigate you for all the unsolved break ins and anything else they cannot figure out. (yes, that happened to me)


Now that is alot of negatives, all I am trying to say is, pick safe, and try to stay away from (and not cause) any possible problems.

[unlisted]

Thats just my advice, take it or laugh at it, I'm just trying to let you and others know what may happen, cause I've seen/experienced it already.

[MacGyver101]

You have to be able to prove you will not do anything illegal with them. (nor that you are predisposed to . . .

Your second statement (above) is the correct one. In Canada, possession of tools that could be used for breaking and entering is a reverse-onus charge, meaning that you are considered guity until you prove yourself innocent. There are very few of those charges in the Criminal Code: the other charges are mostly related to firearms- and drug-related crimes. However, the circumstances must give rise to a reasonable belief that you possess the tools for a criminal purpose. The relevent section is here:

351. (1) Every one who, without lawful excuse, the proof of which lies on him, has in his possession any instrument suitable for the purpose of breaking into any place, motor vehicle, vault or safe under circumstances that give rise to a reasonable inference that the instrument has been used or is or was intended to be used for any such purpose, is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years.

If we're talking about anything beyond simple lockpicks, however, the laws become somewhat more complex. Tools for opening vending machines have special protection:

352. Every one who, without lawful excuse, the proof of which lies on him, has in his possession any instrument suitable for breaking into a coin-operated device or a currency exchange device, under circumstances that give rise to a reasonable inference that the instrument has been used or is or was intended to be used for breaking into a coin-operated device or a currency exchange device, is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years.

As do tools for opening cars:

353. (1) Every one who

(a) sells, offers for sale or advertises in a province an automobile master key otherwise than under the authority of a licence issued by the Attorney General of that province, or

(b) purchases or has in his possession in a province an automobile master key otherwise than under the authority of a licence issued by the Attorney General of that province,

is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years.

352. (5) . . . “automobile master key” includes a key, pick, rocker key or other instrument designed or adapted to operate the ignition or other switches or locks of a series of motor vehicles.

[unlisted]

Theres also the issue I mentioned before, (which can be worse) even if you are seen, or reported to have lockpicks, the police can investigate you (crimestoppers) for anything they cannot solve, and that can turn your life upside down also. Since a investigation is not any type of "official charge" on your CPIC file, it always stays there, (on CPIC) and there is no course of action you can take to remove it. I have stuff on my CPIC since I was 14. Someone called crimestoppers, and reported that I may be doing illegal stuff. (I wasn't) They investigated. Now, when I am stopped by the police, (well the last time I was 4 years ago) they would give me a hard time on this. Also, with my new(er) job, I needed RCMP clearance, and that was a really, really fun interview. (explaining my "investigations")

Now, if you are charged with an offence, it can be removed.

[Pintumbler]

Sorry for the very late reply
all your information is appreciated,
i ended up opting for homemade picks
i can create what i want, and the quality is higher then i expected
as an update, i've picked 2 padlocks and 1 door lock so far all under 60 seconds
made: 1 half diamond (favourite)
3 hooks
1 coathanger snap gun
1 snake
3 tension wrenches ( one works )

if this topic is bumped i appologize in advance, the quality replys deserved a thank-you, as late as it was.

[samfishers]

i did
one half diamond
1 snake (broken)
4 hooks(2 broken)
1 round
and some that i dont know(ill post an image)
and like 7 spring steel tension wrenches