Question for EU locksmiths?

[whiteknight38]

I'm writing an article for a Canadian Police magazine, and want to fact check a few things.

It sounds like a lot of people are getting sick to death of bump key issues, but bumping has only quite recently come onto the radar of locksmiths here in Canada. Sorry, but it's the subject of my piece.

ALOA stated in their August, 04 press release, stating that few professional locksmiths would use bump keys as a front line bypass technique, essentially dismissing the efficacy and validity of bumping for professionals.
Would any of you care to offer an opinion as to whether this is also true, or not the case, in Europe?
I have recently spoken to one Canadian locksmith, who trained in Europe, who said he bumped regularly as part of his job, as did many of his peers. I would like corroboration of this point if possible, if anyone can claim actual field experience.
Any EU lcoksmithing students know if it is on the curriculum at the trade schools as a field bypass technique?
I also have another post in Got Questions? about the statement in the TOOOL website that mentions Klaus Noch, who purportedly alerted the media to a bumping connection with a reported rash of burglaries in Germany.
Please have a look at it, and if you know any details of this alleged crime wave, then get back to me.
Sorry to sort of cross post, this last bit, but I'm a little pressed for time.
Regards
Paul

[Jaakko]

I'm not officially a locksmith but I can tell you that in Finland (look at the European map, right there at the top right corner, right next to Russia) nobody bumps locks. There is a very good explanation to it: Abloy practically in every door you encounter

[keyman]

For a long time bumping has been know here in the uk but has not really been a problem due to the fact that we fit alot of british standard mortice locks which can't be bumped ,it is only in the last few years that Upvc doors have been installed in nearlly ever home with euro cylinders in them,at the momment it is not general knowledge to the public.But hey if they come in asking about it i tell them i have bump proof cylinders for sale ,its there choice.
regards

[whiteknight38]

Okay, keyaman, but what about bypass? Picking an upside down cylinder isn't easy when it's mounted in a door. We;re starting to see EU profile locks over here in the last few years. Do you and your colleagues bump on lockout calls, or have you just learned to pick them upside down, or do you mainly go straight for destructive entry?

[xorb]

I do some police work over here.

Bumping is not general knowledge as keyman says, but i have had one client talk about it. I know some baliff monkeys bump for quick entry which is all very good if you don't want to show off in front of a customer.

Police officers talk about it, especially the CPOs (crime prevention officers) as well as SOCO (scenes of crime officers) and definatley forensics, bumping with a key with a stop makes an etch mark on the cylinder so it's big talk when a victim claims that he had the door locked.

The only BBBBBIIIIIGGGGGG problem i see day in day out is the euro-profile locks when they get snapped. Too easy to gain entry, and a big problem. i'd say about 95% of burglaries via a euro profile fitted door are this way. I always recommend with the uPVC doors that we have:

* Tokyo handles (die cast aluminium with a toughened steel insert) or solid steel handles, electrobrassed or poweder coated in white/black.

* I fit Squire snap safe cylinders and recommend them to all clients at £45 each it's a nice bargain for a lot when you tell them how entry can be gained through uPVC flaws.

* Sash Jammers where possible to the frame as an additional deadlocking solution.

Anyways hope this info clears some things up.

As keyman says the mortice locks can't be bumped, completely different to cylinders and generic to the UK.

[NickBristol]

I do occasionally use my bump keys on lock-outs but not often. They are generally 3rd or 4th option down the list before looking at more creative ways in and before drilling. Bump keys and hammers have got a little more sophisticated recently which makes it look a little more professional, rather than just whacking a cut down key with a screwdriver.

Looking at the popular keywords for lock related stuff on the net 'Bump proof lock' is quite a common search by the public.

On a related note, went to a possible bump key break-in Monday evening: Yale auto-deadlock (Yale No2), tiny pointless letterbox (literally fist sized) so dont think a tool was used through there. Small dent on the cylinder face in the right place. Can't be sure it was, but then can't be sure it wasn't. First thought was that door simply hadn't closed fully but there was a working door closer fitted and no carpet or mat to obstruct it. Householder was in fortunately and heard a noise and found the door open. Think the crim heard his heavy feet coming down the hall and legged it.

I'm thinking of getting some custom-made escutcheons for mortice locks stamped with 'Try bumping this you a**hole'

[keyman]

From my own point of view picking a euro is no different than picking a normal rim cylinder ,but if your using a manual pick gun then yes you need to turn it upside down , but like xorb said snaping is farmore common than bumping at the momment.As for my method of entry it depends on the job if lets say customer has lost keys then yes destructive entry is sometimes quicker and you get to sell them a new cylinder,if the lock is very expensive and say wife has lost keys but husband has keys but is 200 miles away at work then i use certain methods of bypass which i wont discuss in open forum but bumping a lock depends on the the lock type and also the pin differs one lock might bump easy then exactly the same make of lock with different differs will not . But hey if there is a window open who needs to bump a lock its getting a little warmer in the uk people leave windows open ,

[taylorgdl]

As mentioned above, most of us have bump keys, but they come way down the list of possible entry methods.

So far, that I haven't used mine on a door yet, but handy to know they are there in case you have to resort to them.

They are still higher on the list than a drill bit though.

Also, snapping is a lot bigger issue here at the minute.

G.

[UWSDWF]

Blueline?

[Shrub]

I dont use bump keys,

I think someone who uses them as a first method of attack should not be called a locksmith,

Snapping is an issue but if asked the technique is not open for discussion here,

Euro cylinders are no more differant or difficult to pick than other cylinders, its your locks that are upside down

Bumping is common knowledge amoungst the type of person that are younger or go on the net a lot,

Ive been to a couple of calls now where bump keys have been used, twice no entry and 3rd time they only got into a porch,


We dont need more bump key threads, if you toiok the time to search the site you will find loads of threads and i can think of 2 specific ones that deal with your exact questions with one of them even being a poll asking what the lockies use, i know this becaiuse i made it,

Please do real homework if your gogin to be doing a presentation of any type becuase it seems to me your rushing around and not doing things properly, im sure youve had more than enough time to do this work before getting to this state,

[ponsaloti]

The local crime prevention officer and CID have recently talked to me about burglaries with no evidence of forced entry, they are concerned with the problem of house-breakers using bumping methods and sites like this and youtube showing how to make and us these keys and where to buy them. They are assuming bumping is being used .
Bumping is in london and its coming my way.

[greyman]

I would say that one of the practical problems with bump keys is that you need a different bump key for every keyway, key length and type of pin-tumbler lock you might encounter. That could add up to a pretty big bunch of keys. Locksmiths have been opening locks without the key for a long time and I doubt that they need this tool to do their job effectively. From a commercial perspective, drilling or other destructive entry method has the "advantage" that the owner has to pay for a replacement lock.

[DaveAG]

I would say that one of the practical problems with bump keys is that you need a different bump key for every keyway, key length and type of pin-tumbler lock you might encounter.

I think that at least in the UK if a thief took the most 5 most common pin-tumbler bump keys they would get into quite a few houses without too much trouble.

A thief will assume that on a given street each house has a TV, a computer, and some jewellery say. Rather than pick the correct bumpkey for each house, they'll select a house that will open with their bumpkey.

My parents have a 5 lever deadlock fitted to their front door but they only lock it when they go on holiday, and I doubt they are alone in this.

I know the Mul-T-Lock on my front door is bumpable, but the chances of a thief carrying the correct MTL bump key is slim when he can get better "value for money" with a couple of Yale and Union bump keys.

To achieve perfect security is impossible
To achieve good security simply ensure your house is harder to break into than next-door. Its the same as that joke about two men being chased by a bear. One says why are we running we should fight the bear as it can easily outrun us. The other says "I don't need to outrun the bear, I just need to outrun you"

[xorb]

In responce to DaveG:

I have collected over 100 euro profiles cylinders and rim cylinders and you must know there is one main keyway that eurocylinders use and thats a universal, look on the back of a copied key and it may start with UNL5 UN05, UNL6 etc. Something with a 'U' donoting universal. There are two sizes 25mm from the stop being a size 5 and 30mm being size 6. They also have the universal keys for the reverse of a standard profile.

Apart from these standard keys every manufacturer has a different pin set up, some may be 5 pin but the pins may be set in different place, i.e. mila has a small pin set of 5 while era (5pin model cylinders (30mm)) has a much larger pin set, thus making 2 entirely different bumpkeys for these models. It must be pointed out that of the 100 cylinders i have there is about 15 different bumpkeys just for a standard universal profile.

[DaveAG]

What I've noticed is that around the town I live in the majority of rim cylinders are Yale, Union, Bird, and Securefast (which I believe is a rebranded Bird)

I agree with xorb that whilst the profile may be the same the spacing differs, but I believe there are still a small number of profile/spacing combinations that account for a large part of the market.