Mortice Locks

[PickPick]

Cheers!
And we're pretty likeminded after all, as the things you mention are exactly the things I don't like to discuss with the general public. Bypasses, automatic impressioning, that kind of stuff. Anything that doesn't require skill is a 'hot' topic for me. But picking levers does require far more skill then any bright criminal would invest. With drillpoints and decoders it's something else of course.

[pingu]

Hi, just wanted to enter an opinion on the theory of security by obsufication. Microsoft tied to ensure the security of their software by keeping their code "secret" and keeping known exploits "secret". The theory being that is people knew how the operating sytem worked, then they could defeat, and if the loopholes in their code became common knowledge then everyone could use them. Conversly the open source approach of the Linux operating sytem actively encourages analysis for weakness and discussion of exploits in the public arena to ensure those weaknesses are fixed, thus resulting in a more secure operating system .By keeping the exploits secret, microsoft ensure that people have a false sense of security about their system which is being hacked by the people who do know, and only tell their friends. In much the same way not discussing how people bypass physical security in locks as if secret, can give people a false sense of security in those locks. I picked my first lock at about 12, and could explain to my parents why the 2 lever lock they had on the door and gave them a secure feeling in use, was not worth a rats ass. It was quickly changed with a 5 lever lock that they had good reason to feel confident in using. If the lock is a good lock there is no problem in open discussion of its weaknesses if any, so people know how best to prevent this being exploited etc.


I feel I have rambled somewhat, and hope it isn;t a problem. Thanks

[Chucklz]

Locks are open source. Anyone who owns one can take one apart and figure it out. Just like anyone running an open source *nix can take it apart and figure it out.

Most *nix developers will say that they've found a new way to get root through overflow or such buffer etc, but wont post specifics on how a luser could overflow that buffer. In the same way, I will tell you that on some aluminum doors, a particular medeco cylinder can be bypassed in about as much time as it would take to use a key, with a simple tool that can be constructed out of every day objects.

[Prodigy]

I agree with the guys who say it should be left alone, the rubbish said a theif only uses force is the weakest excuse ever. You mean to tell me if a theif had a choice of using force and leaving evidence and establishing a MO or picking locks and not leaving a trace...........hmmmmmmm can call a friend thanks.

It gets back to the worlds funnest video H2K2 with "the gingerbread man" and "the KEY". The opening staement of they are just puzzles. Locks are not puzzles they are security devices that secure peoples houses and belogings, or University where the same people get educated then expect to earn gaziloin dollars.

Why do people who attend a computer hacking forum need to know how to open locks of the likes of MEDICO, ABLOY and padlocks hhmmmmm.
It is like the gun story, guns dont kill people using the gun kill. In the wrong hands it is dangerous.

Well ill get off the box now guys and have another CC

[BlackLOCK]

I see both points, I followed that link and read through the posts and there was some real belters, but it does take a grate deal of skill, time , and practice to pick 5 lever mortice locks,

Also like I have said in previous posts its a good bunch of guys here who are usually willing to help/advise unless you ask daft stuff like how do you open BMW's or can you tell me how to pick phone boxes.

just my tuppence worth lol

[Romstar]

I agree with the guys who say it should be left alone, the rubbish said a theif only uses force is the weakest excuse ever. You mean to tell me if a theif had a choice of using force and leaving evidence and establishing a MO or picking locks and not leaving a trace...........hmmmmmmm can call a friend thanks.

It gets back to the worlds funnest video H2K2 with "the gingerbread man" and "the KEY". The opening staement of they are just puzzles. Locks are not puzzles they are security devices that secure peoples houses and belogings, or University where the same people get educated then expect to earn gaziloin dollars.

Why do people who attend a computer hacking forum need to know how to open locks of the likes of MEDICO, ABLOY and padlocks hhmmmmm.
It is like the gun story, guns dont kill people using the gun kill. In the wrong hands it is dangerous.

Well ill get off the box now guys and have another CC

Well, Prodigy, they will use force over finesse. EVERY time. I've studied criminology, I've worked with police, and I can tell you with some authority that many B&E artists know how to pick locks. Their answer almost without fail is: Anything is faster than picking a lock".

Theives are deathly afraid of one thing. Exposure. More than 60% of B&E's are unsolved crimes. The evidence just doesn't exist, and in addition, the goods disappear quickly. Add to that the average caseload of any given officer in a reasonable sized town or city, and you have a recipe that almost guarantees B&E artists getting away with it.

The ones that get caught are generally snitched on, or caught in the act through some sort of bad luck on their part. Theives are generally by nature, lazy, greedy, desperate, stupid or some combination of the four. The rare few that do not fit this profile are generally con-artists of some sort. Their take is that B&E is for losers with no talent or brains. Kinda funny hearing one crook talk down about another. It happens all the time though.

Don't try that tired old chestnut on me. I have the statistics and proof to blow it out of the water. Locks are puzzles. Security isn't about devices, it's about knowledge. Make your home, or business unatractive to the would be theif, and they will go somewhere else. Unless you have something they really want. This is the category that professional theives fall into. It's a rare category, but it is populated with some very skilled, talented and unfortunately bent security people; as well as some very, very talented people from outside of the industry.

Their jobs tend to be big, lucrative and rare. Thankfully, most people don't have to worry about this group. Their targets are often the type of place and story that make great movies.

No, teaching people to pick locks, bypass security systems, or open and start cars doesn't make them theives. The crooks were that way before hand. The majority of the crooks will still rely on the tools that a professional is loathe to use. The crowbar, the foot, and the rock.

Romstar

[Prodigy]

Romstar,

I so think you are so far from the mark it is scary. Stats are exactly that, figures. That is all you have to back your argument well i feel sorry for you. You must have been to university and have no commone sence dude.

Stats........well if you have 2 people on an island one is 4' tall and the other is 6' tall what is the avaerage height for that island...................

So where are the stats when it comes to the best security in the churches in Italy where art work is stolen every month worth more than some countries make. after an extensive forensic examiniation the locks were picked, impressioned and bypassed.

I question you about beign a "lock tech" & "Alarm tech", dude you must be in a fantisy world. Yes granted your run of the mill shithead will destroy the door and or use extreem force. BUT! if you had the reasourc es to investigate each crime like god forbid CSI eventually an MO will be established up until ultimate evidence will identify the baddie.

there are very different ends of teh stick dude, if they had access to more efficent ways to prevent detection they will take it. Mate i have been a Locksmith for 10 years then a Police officer for 8 years so I too speak from some professional background.

We can play the too a fro game until we die, another is that if the baddie had a choice of a screwdriver or a gun to commit a crime what would YOU! choose.

it kind confuses me, one time people are saying it is not a problem to show people how to pick locks because it shows them HOW INSECURE their locks are, but if the general community didnt know HOW they would be still secure YES!. So if they are rubbish in securtiy but who from?????. Every one is telling me theifs only use crowbars, and force........

Puzzles,,,,,,afraid not there are people I bet you guys included who cannot afford the real high security locks, it would piss you guys off to no end if I were to bypass your security and fomat hard drives for a demonstation each week. I garantee I can do it faster than you think.

Time to go.

Keep ya head down.

[archiebald]

Well something to think about .

[Romstar]

Romstar,

I so think you are so far from the mark it is scary. Stats are exactly that, figures. That is all you have to back your argument well I feel sorry for you. You must have been to university and have no commone sence dude.

I have all of the years of experience I've gathered, more than 10 years worth. Funny thing about common sense, I find it isn't that common. I've got enough of it. My common sense tells me that if a crook can kick in my door easier than picking my lock, he'll do it.

Stats........well if you have 2 people on an island one is 4' tall and the other is 6' tall what is the avaerage height for that island...................

Apples and oranges. There isn't a sufficient population base to make a statistical analysis. It's a nice assumption, but totally inapplicable. I'm aware of Samuel Clements, and in many cases I agree with his assessment. The majority of raw statistics however aren't slanted toward one assumption or another. That happens after someone gets hold of the data.

So where are the stats when it comes to the best security in the churches in Italy where art work is stolen every month worth more than some countries make. after an extensive forensic examiniation the locks were picked, impressioned and bypassed.

This falls under my statement concerning professional thieves. The score at a job like that more than justifies the skills of someone who very well may be your local locksmith during the day. There are bent people in this trade just like there are in any other trade. Greed will alwyas be a motivating factor. In cases where the person isn't a practicing security professional, you will most likely discover they are a professional thief. In addition, jobs like that are commonly planned weeks or even months in advance. It takes time to gather the necessary tools, and talent for a high profile job.

I question you about beign a "lock tech" & "Alarm tech", dude you must be in a fantisy world. Yes granted your run of the mill shithead will destroy the door and or use extreem force. BUT! if you had the reasources to investigate each crime like god forbid CSI eventually an MO will be established up until ultimate evidence will identify the baddie.

The forensic study of lock manipulation can show that it took place, it can sometimes in rare cases show that a siezed tool was used in that crime. However, in most cases the materials simply do not render such accurate analysis. Further, I'm sorry you question my validity as a security and lock technician, but I'm happy to tell you that I have over ten years of experience in this field. Installing and servicing alarm, monitoring, and access control systems. Including high security locks, and biometric scanners. Furthermore, you were, or are a cop for heavens sake. You know how many unsolved B&E's there are. You should also know that most of them aren't captured by dectective work, but by luck.

there are very different ends of the stick dude, if they had access to more efficent ways to prevent detection they will take it. Mate I have been a Locksmith for 10 years then a Police officer for 8 years so I too speak from some professional background.

Then use it for heavens sake. There are 30 million people in Canada, 300 million people in the United States. The FBI, and the RCMP indicate that there are more unsolved B&E and theft of property crimes than any other crime. Theft tends to be a crime of opportunity. Deliberate, planed thefts of very high value typically fall into the perview of very talented amatures, or bent security professionals. The availability of information to these persons is beyond our control. The talented amatures know all the bent pros. The pros have supposedly valid reasons for accessing this information. Thusly, it gets distributed.

We can play the too a fro game until we die, another is that if the baddie had a choice of a screwdriver or a gun to commit a crime what would YOU! choose.

As Sean Connery once said in the movie "The Untouchables", "Trust a wop to bring a knife to a gun fight". Criminals are by and large opportunistic, ill prepared idiots. The ones that aren't are probably smart enough to either not use a gun, or have a very careful plan to use the gun and dispose of it in a unique manner.

At any rate, shooting a lock off a door is almost guaranteed to get you noticed. People don't call in to report breaking glass, or other strange noises. They'll call like droves for a gun shot though. Police of every nationality hve been telling the public for years not to confront a thief. Most times, B&E falls into the smash and grab territory. They are in and out before the first call reaches the dispatch officer.

it kind confuses me, one time people are saying it is not a problem to show people how to pick locks because it shows them HOW INSECURE their locks are, but if the general community didnt know HOW they would be still secure YES!. So if they are rubbish in securtiy but who from?????. Every one is telling me theifs only use crowbars, and force........

Most of the locks found on residences are garbage. Not only are they prone to manipulation, but as a consequence of their cheap construction they yeild easily to foces attacks. Most Weiser and Kwikset locks can be forced with a strong hand or a pipe wrench. Many of the cheaper locks use plastic in their construction, and this makes them incredibly insecure.
Stronger, better constructed locks resist force to a greater degree. Then we have to turn our attention to ancillory construction. The strength and quality of the mounting hardware and the frame. In many large scale developments, the door frame is so weak that if you trip and fall into it the frame shatters and your lying in the entryway. Security is a well thoughtout overall approach to making your residence, business or other area unattractive to opportunistic criminals.

Puzzles,,,,,,afraid not there are people I bet you guys included who cannot afford the real high security locks, it would piss you guys off to no end if I were to bypass your security and fomat hard drives for a demonstation each week. I garantee I can do it faster than you think.

Sure it would piss me off. For two reasons, 1. I should have bloody well known better. 2. If you are demonstrating, a note is sufficient to giving a wake up call about security.
Most victims of break and enters are not bothered by the loss of property, but by feelings of fear, insecurity, and violation. A note is enough to scare the bejesus out of many people.

The locks on my home and my shop are more than quite secure. How are you at picking Schlage Everst locks? Rekeyed Medeco and Pyramid deadlocks?

Time to go.

Keep ya head down.

I agree, time to go.
Romstar

[Romstar]

I just wanted to let everyone know that I have a lot of respect for both Prodigy and his opinions.
He's been on both ends of the stick, and that counts for a lot.

Even though I don't like anyone insinuating that I might be fabricating something, he did exactly what I would have done.

He didn't mince words, he came right out and said it or asked. That's important. Sure it may ruffle some feathers, and it did mine for a few minutes, but in the end it means more.

I don't base my opinions on statistics alone. I've been in the security field for over 10 years. I've worked with the police, and others on investigations. On a more than a few occasions I've had my opinions solicited as a part and parcel of my job.

Prodigy has been a cop. A sometimes thankless job that leaves many burnt out and bitter. It's most likely that he has seen more than many of us, and yet he's still here.

I personally look forward to reading much more from Prodigy, and I for one and glad he is a member of this community.

Romstar

[Safekey]

In my experience, a criminal will use what ever method or tool is available to him/her.

They will do what ever it takes to get into a property without being seen or heard.

If they know how to pick locks, they will do it. Luckily, the average shit for brains burglar does not know how to pick locks, so they use other tools which can be carried in a jacket sleeve or pocket, so that the passing police officer will not see it.

More commonly, they slip the latch of some lazy homeowner / tenant who they saw leaving for work and forgeting to double lock or use a mortice.
When the victim returns home to find his valuables gone, but cant see how they got in, a kind locksmith will inform them how it's done.

The Police simply just have not got the time to investigate the majority of burglary's, so the criminals keep going till they get seen one day.

In my early training days, I used Cola bottles, and i'm sure that a lot of entries are done using the same method today.

[mbell]

Luckily, the average shit for brains burglar does not know how to pick locks.

Says it all really.

[Romstar]

Luckily, the average shit for brains burglar does not know how to pick locks.

Says it all really.

Yes, it says a lot.

This is a lot about what I have been talking about. Anyone here who has been learning to pick locks is going to admit it takes TIME to get good. It takes patience, and effort. Basically a work ethic.

Now, some thieves do have such a work ethic. They steal for the thrill of it, or the big scores. These guys aren't your average crap for brains B&E artist. They generally fall into two categories. Very talented amateur or bent professional. Motivated by big greed, or adreneline.

Most thieves who would be lock pickers soon give up on it as needing too much work. There are easier, simpler means of getting in to grab some poor buggers computer, jewlery, loose cash, or anything else not nailed down.

In and out in five minutes or less. The response time of most police departments is longer than that. Unless they happen to be near enough to see something they want to check out.

[Theros]

lol

This thread took a rather obtuse angle from mortice locks

At the end of the day if you dont want to share your information on mortice locks, why bother making ripples in the pond, denying another to the right of information cause of you thinking its against moral's. That is your opinion but that shouldnt and won't stop others sharing that info... This just seems to have degraded to handbags at 10 paces

Was kinda looking forward to info

[Ivan]

Errr Am I being daft - what did Safekey use cola bottles for?