Why did this lockie grind my key?

[Eyes_Only]

I was at a lockshop a few weeks ago to get a key copied and I noticed the guy who cut my key did something I've never seen before when copying a key. After it was cut he took the key to a bench grinder and lightly grinded down the area of the key right below the tip. I didn't think much of it until now and it's been starting to bug me as to what that was for. Any thoughts?

[Krypos]

i might be able to help you.

i read on here once somewhere, that some, somewhat low class lockies will do something like that. something small, and not so noticeable.

what happens next is this: you go to the nearest place to get a key copied, and because there is a piece of it missing that doesnt stick out to you, the following happens: some other lockie copies the key, and you take it home, and the key doesnt work. or it is sticky, or whatever else.

so you take the original back to the first lockie, the one who cut it funny. and he copies it perfectly for you and it works great. from then on you always go there because for whatever reason he can cut your key.

what happened is this: the second lockie doesnt know that there is a spot shaved off, and when its placed in the machine, it doesnt sit right. subsequently, the copied key is wrong.

solution? ask for your key to be cut by code and not just duped.

optional: call out the first mischevious lockie and tell him hes an ass for cheating unsuspecting fools like that.

thats PROBABLY it.

[2octops]

If he was grinding the bottom edge of the key, never go back to him again.

This is done to make the bottom of the blade sloped a little bit, so the next guy that sticks that key in a duplicator will unknowingly end up with a key that does not work. The slope of the key will cause the cuts at the tip to be to deep.

It's really a dirty way of doing business.

If that is not what he did, then I have no clue.

[Eyes_Only]

Thanks guys. I think Ill go down to the key shop thats close to where I live and ask the locksmiths there to see if they know anything about that too. I just took a look at another key for my mailbox that the "shady" shop cut and I noticed that the top slope and a tiny bit of the tip of the key was grinded down.

You know what, I think I'll pay them a visit too next time I need a key cut and if they pull off that technique again I'll ask them to re-cut the key and ask them specifically not to take it to the grinder and see how they react. If they start to argue I'll bring up the points you guys shared with me.

[Krypos]

and hey, dont be afraid to mess with them. whats the worst that can happen? they'll have you thrown out of the shop, and you wont have to go there anymore.

right?

but then again, make sure this is whats going on and dont make false accusations. know what you're talking about and be strong with it.

[Eyes_Only]

Yeah, I'm gonna first politely ask them to show me why they used this method. If it seems to check out then at least theres nothing I need to worry about and came out learning something new.

If not and they really are using underhanded methods to secure customers, I'll go to my other locksmith and let them know about what going on at that other shop. I don't think this kind of fraud should go overlooked.

[WOT]

A lot of shops in my area gives you "letter of authorization mlah blah bleh" and I know a shop or two that takes that use that to their advantage.

They use neuter bow blanks coined "DO NOT DUPLICATE" on one side and the store name and in-house blank code on the other.

This provides two lines of defense:

Against Locksmiths:
1. "It sez DND lettarh of authirization bleh bleh bleh" if he feels you shouldn't copy it and this is common in my area.

If the locksmith is willing to duplicate, the second line of defense kicks in

2. "sorry we don't have this blank, I suggest you go back to the store stamped on it". Neuter bow can cause a locksmith to tell you that immediately after handing him the key. Not knowing the brand of the lock, and the head giving away no clue, visual deduction of keyway is very time consuming and takes skills. Even test cylinders don't offer a perfect solution. If the key brought in is a multiplex key and the locksmith concludes it is a single type key blank based on one cylinder it fits in, the duplicate will not fit every cylinder the original was intended to enter. Specialty blanks are expensive (often $2-3 ea, whole sale) and time is money, so instead of spending 15 minutes looking for a blank and have a 50% chance of wasting a $3 blank, he'll just turn you away. Finally, if he'd rather not admit "uh, but I'm not sure if this is a J,K, L or M keyway"


Hardware stores:
The Axxess+ depend on the head shape as preliminary identification, so the operator gets confused by the neuter bow.

If it's a slightly experienced hardware store, the neuter bow won't get far. He'll see if it's a KW1 or SC1. If it isn't either, you'll get told "we don't have the blank"

Visual deduction is really hard. Who can deduce the exact blank type for all three within 5 minutes? Consider every five minutes of employee time is $1.00 wasted and frustrated customers in line for a busy shop.

[ponsaloti]

Your key may be for a 5-pin and he may have cut it using a 6-pin blank possibly because he had run out of the 5-pin version.

[Mutzy]

I think ponsaloti is right on the money - Locksmith cuts 5 pin key on 6 pin blank. When the key's in the duplicating machine, he cuts the 6th cut down, then grinds (I use a file) the bottom part of the tip down to 5 pin key length.

[Eyes_Only]

I thought of that but I checked the key blank number that was on the key they cut for me and it matched up as the right size blank on the Ilco Key Catalog. Plus he wasn't grinding a whole lot off the tip. Just a little bit off the top or bottom slope of the tip.

[Krypos]

ive seen 5 pin keys cut onto 6 pin blanks. they usually just start at the tip and work their way down. and what happens is that there is a larger spot down towards the bow.

or at least, thats what I've* seen done.

[parapilot]

I do it quite a lot when we get unusuall keys in, same profile as the ones we have but longer. just grind it down. but be carefull, on euros etc its got to be bob on as the tip of the key engages the cam, slightly to short the key will turn but wont unlock the door!

I always eye up the profile once in the duplicator, check everything is in order, but sloping the underside of the key to mess up other lockies is a bit sad, Ill be on the lookout for it tho, its always embarrasing when someone comes back with a key that does not work...

[Al]

Some shops will change the angle at the tip on some key sections. It can make it easier to push the key into the lock if the fluting is narrow. Sometimes the cutter will take too much off and leave a bit sticking out even on the correct legth blank. Sometimes they will file off the sharper parts to stop you cutting yourself. Maybe he didn't cut it back close enough to the shoulder so the blade was too high. Maybe he was 'doctoring' as suggested earlier. We just can't say without a picture.

[linty]

sometimes worn keys or cheap blanks will end up being a tad shorter than a well made blank so when you duplicate it you end up with a little excess key sticking out, kind of a little spike.

I grind that off mostly because it's sharp.

if it's just a little off the tip i doubt it would affect others' ability to duplicate your key.

[Eyes_Only]

Wouldn't it screw up the spacing?