Why did this lockie grind my key?

by **Mutzy** » 10 Jun 2007 9:43

On most keys, the spacing goes from the shoulder, not the tip. However, some euro cylinders also require the tip to be the correct length, because of the driver at the end of the cylinder.

by **Eyes_Only** » 10 Jun 2007 9:51

I remember reading somewhere that some key machines will gauge a key in the carriage at the shoulder or the tip, and not just on keys with the stop at the tip.

by **linty** » 10 Jun 2007 9:58

proper practice when cutting keys is that if the lock is designed to stop the key at the shoulder (most pin tumblers, small wafer and some automotive locks are designed this way) you should use the shoulder stop on your key machine to duplicate it.

In the case of a key that is designed to tip-stop in the lock (many automotive keys, best keys, etc.) you should tip stop when duplicating.

If the key in question was a tip-stop key, and the locksmith ground the tip it would detrimentally affect the spacing on the key and would likely cause the key and all subsequent copies not to work unless you pulled it out slightly, but this would be stupid and not sneaky.

if it was a shoulder stop key, shortening the tip slightly wouldn't have any impact on the key's operation.

by **Jryanruch** » 10 Jun 2007 17:22

If it was a Kwikset style blank -- there are some types that require the bottom edge of the tip to be ground back (like a best key) so that the blank will fit into the lock properly. If I'm unsure of which type of lock the customer is using, I will often take the lower tip edge off just to be safe. It doesn't hurt.

If he took material off the bow end spine of the key, it could be that he's using cheap blanks and that he was removing a burr that would prevent the key from sitting flat in the lock. We had a box of pre-coined "Do Not Copy" blanks from China that had some nickel plating build up that had to be removed on most of the blanks for them to work accurately...

On the other hand, maybe he's a sketchy lockie...

by **Jryanruch** » 10 Jun 2007 17:28

If you have an ilco catalog, you'll see this on some Pundra file cabinet blanks, National cabinet blanks, Kwikset... there are a couple others.

by **WOT** » 10 Jun 2007 19:22

linty wrote:proper practice when cutting keys is that if the lock is designed to stop the key at the shoulder (most pin tumblers, small wafer and some automotive locks are designed this way) you should use the shoulder stop on your key machine to duplicate it.

In the case of a key that is designed to tip-stop in the lock (many automotive keys, best keys, etc.) you should tip stop when duplicating.

Not quite.

Left: Ford. Tip stop
Middle: Corbin Cabinet Lock. Shoulder stop

Right: Best Access Systems. Tip index stop.
Spacing tolerance needs to be exact to 1/1000" and the distance between the nose and the index is not something , so if you index to the nose, you'll likely get a spacing error.

by **Raccoon** » 10 Jun 2007 22:11

I was actually going to ask if Eyes_Only would please post a pic of the key in question, so we can see exactly what he ground.

by **Eyes_Only** » 10 Jun 2007 23:03

I don't have a digital camera right now (if I did I would be posting a lot more pictures for many of my posts) but the number of the key I still have from that locksmith is a ilco 1180S (XL7). The top slope of the key tip and a small part of the tip of the key was grinded down. Hope this helps.

by **Jryanruch** » 10 Jun 2007 23:14

Was he cutting it for it's intended purpose as a mailbox lock or for another application?

by **Eyes_Only** » 10 Jun 2007 23:19

For its intended application.

by **Krypos** » 11 Jun 2007 2:21

i havent read the rest of the posts, but have you talked to this guy yet?

by **Wolfe** » 11 Jun 2007 6:17

Thats a bunch of bull shit if its true. I hope you go and break this guys hands if it is.
Of all the people you should be able to trust lockies should be on the top of the list.

by **Eyes_Only** » 11 Jun 2007 8:09

Well its been a couple of months since I last got a key cut by this shop so to me it's kind of weird to drop in and start drilling the guy about a key he cut a couple months back. But the next time I need a particular key cut for me by a pro because I can't figure out the proper blank to use on my own I'll ask the guys why they grind the keys down.

by **Jryanruch** » 11 Jun 2007 11:30

Also... the blade side tip of the key tends to wear away first on some locks so when you go to copy a well used key the duplicator will cut out brass from the tip of the blank that ordinarily would not need to be removed. The result is an ugly key (but still a functional key) and some lockies will grind down the bottom tip so it will go into the lock smoother and to save your pockets from the sharp point held on the spine side tip.

When I figure out how to host pics I'll try to get some examples up from my shop.

by **79commando** » 11 Jun 2007 14:38

If the cost of the key was reasonable don'y worry about it. The time spent worrying about this could be put to use picking locks. I for one wouldn't grudge anyone covering his work. Look on the bright side, if someone tries to get a copy of your key without you knowing it wont work. He has infact saved you from a possible burglary :wink:

Why did this lockie grind my key?

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