Security pins ?New style?

[Raymond]

I have an idea for a new security type pin. I would like to hear comments and suggestions.

What if you took a pin slightly larger in diameter than the holes in the plug? Depending on the lock being used - about .120". Smoothly drill out the top pin chambers to allow the new pins to move freely. Use slightly heavier springs.

Taper the new top pin until the bottom end is just below the plug hole diameter. You would want it to wedge into the bottom hole exactly as deep as the bottom pin. Polish very smoothly. Make one spool with the larger diameter top pin material. Taper the bottom end.

Picking will be frustrated because no pin can be felt at the shear line. With one wedged at full diameter, another will remain free and untouching the sides. Only with very heavy turning pressure can you hold up the tapered pin because of the action of wedge mechanics. The tapers will constantly force themselves back down. I doubt anyone can apply a consistent turning pressure long enough to keep all of the tapered pins up off the bottom pin. Getting past one spool pin complicates everything even more.

Part of picking theory relates to manufacturing inaccuracies. With all top pins able to go down different distances until they wedge equally, the taper compensates for the manufacturing inaccuracy.

Kick this idea around and let me know what you think.

[Shrub]

If i understand it properly the process will make the lock a lot easier to pick but then again i could have misunderstood what you mean,

[n00bking]

ok so what you are saying is that the top pin is thicker and so is the top pin chamber than the bottom pin and chamber. but the top pin gets a little thinner via tapering when it enters the bottom chamber, also, the bottom chamber is tapered bigger to allow it in there.

well, bumping would still work, but I can see what you are saying it would kind of act as a reverse spool, a small area at the bottom of the top pin for the shear line to catch on. Good. And...no shear line would be felt via the bottom pin because it is small in a big area.

Sounds really good to me. kinda like better than schlage and kwikset, but not as good as medeco or abloy. Also, I am assuming that in addition to the little bit of of tapering of the bottom cylinder there would have to be additional width there in varying degrees as to allow different lenghts of bottom pins right? And couldn't this be achieved with taking a normal pin tumbler and tapering the top of the bottom pins and the bottom of the top pins to almost a point? I mean I know that they are tapered a little bit already to allow smoothness of operation but, like taper them a lot. like so?

[raimundo]

some lab pins already have a beveled edge that actually aids in picking as it will cam to the shearline, the angle of the taper must be steep to prevent this, the same sort of idea cold be counter sinking the edges of the pin holes in the plug to eliminate the step that the pins rest on but once again, would that then cam the top pins into the bible under heavy pressure, that would depend on the angle of the taper. a very slight angle of countersink on the plug might be the only mod needed. but the idea needs extensive testing by various pickers to prove it.

[JackNco]

im with shrub on this one, any chance of a quick sketch or mockup in paint?

[n00bking]

I made one. It is a broken thumbnail, but if you click on it it istill works.

[JackNco]

I made one. It is a broken thumbnail, but if you click on it it istill works.

cheers n00bking, ya i did see that but if its what rai means then i would have thought that would make picking easier.

all the best

John

[Raymond]

The idea is such that you do not taper the bottom holes or taper the bottom pins. The taper would be very little - again - only enough to be a little bit smaller than normal. Maybe about .110 instead of .115. The top pin would wedge snugly in the bottom holes because it's primary diameter is larger than the original bottom holes. The bottom of the tapered top pin would remain flat so it would not rise up from an chamferred bottom hole. Yale (original locks) used pins with extreme angles at the top of the bottom pins and bottom of the top pins. I thought it made them much easier to pick. Thank goodness because the #8 keyway is nasty enough by itself.

[JackNco]

as im imagining it, the best way would be an overall slant from the center, allowing the pins to move about. i guess this would work best with a serrated bottom pin or a notch on the bottom pin. so as u ease off the tension the bottom pin slips past the shear line.

[/code]

[TOWCH]

If I understand what you are saying, you would just reverse pick the lock. Overlift all the pins, apply tension, release the pins, and bounch the tension wrench to allow the bottom pins to fall down.

[Raymond]

I don't think reverse picking would work. Since the leading edge of the top pin is smaller than the bottom pin diameter, whatever bottom pin becomes loose first would allow the top pin to rush past the shearline. Once this taper starts to push down equal to the bottom pin diameter, all the rest of the top pins would follow except for what you are still holding up with the pick.
It might be easier to impression though.

[TOWCH]

I don't see the advantage to using multiple diameters or modifying the lock. Why not just make the top pin the normal diameter?

[n2oah]

the same sort of idea cold be counter sinking the edges of the pin holes in the plug to eliminate the step that the pins rest on but once again, would that then cam the top pins into the bible under heavy pressure, that would depend on the angle of the taper. a very slight angle of countersink on the plug might be the only mod needed. but the idea needs extensive testing by various pickers to prove it.

Counter-sinking the holes in the plug has already been done on the ASSA Twin 5000. It is super effective in resist picking, because ASSA also has special spool top pins that fit into the countersinks.

Why can't we just do that instead of re-inventing the wheel?

[Gordon Airporte]

Counter-sinking the holes in the plug has already been done on the ASSA Twin 5000. It is super effective in resist picking, because ASSA also has special spool top pins that fit into the countersinks.

Why can't we just do that instead of re-inventing the wheel?

I was just going to say, their engineers probably went through a similar thought process. Here's an attempt at drawing it in ascii:

Code: Select all


  |     |
  |     |     Driver
   ]   [
  [_____]
___________
  |      |
 [        ]
  |      |     Chamber
  |      |



This might still be worth thinking about, though, if you can come up with a design that is easier to produce than Assa's, or that can be used to modify a standard cylinder.
Of course, I have no idea whether milling in those little grooves is all that difficult for them.

[n2oah]

Yup, that's it. To further frustrate us, ASSA also made the countersinks vary in depth. Some chambers have no counter sinking at all, and some have it only on 1 side.