part turned curtains in mortice locks

[capt.dunc]

been called recently to a few doors where the client can't insert the key to lock a door, (4 times in the last 2 months) in each case it's simply been that the curtain has been turned a fraction. when i've turned it back it clicks square fine and stays in position, so the spring's fine. i tried slaming the doors but i can't make it jump out of it's set rest position and other than people tampering with the lock i can't think what's caused it. all the locks are in areas with limited access so even tampering seems like a long shot. any thoughts?

ps it's been 2 securefast rip offs, and the same old legge bs twice.

[horsefeathers]

I have often found that customers who have both ERA and Chubb locks in their home, can end up accidentally using a chubb key in an ERA lock which can produce same result. Both keys are brass and customers can in a rush get mixed up between the two and after a bit of fiddling with the chubb key, scratching head as to why it wont go work, realise their error, but then correct ERA key cant go in as curtain tweaked.

One of those slightly awkward jobs whereby a quick glance thru keyway tells you problem, and you know a quick flick with screwdriver will correct and hey presto! So what do you charge customer? Especially if it is mostly elderly who are most at risk of getting keys mixed up!

regards

[capt.dunc]

that can't be it, the building with the legge has legges throughout, and being a commercial property no-one should get mixed up with their personal keys.
i wouldn't charge for that, in all the cases i've been there to do another job and the client has said, "oh and by the way we've got this other door that we can't get the key in". where these extra easy fixes appear at a job i do them out of courtesy, after all word of mouth is great p.r.

[cjames73]

next time you get one have a look at the levers to see if there are any marks from a wire pick.

these levers are from my very first attempt at picking lever locks so maybe your locks will be similar.

[taylorgdl]

Possible causes:

1. Worn curtain/spring
2. Possible pick attempt
3. Sometimes if key has high lift levers on removal from the lock it catches the curtain and turns it enough to pervent the keys re-insertion.
4. Check its the correct curtain - I have seen profit curtains in viscount locks (or vise versa), and the don't fit very well!
5. Kids sticking things (screw-drivers mainly) in the lock and knocking the curtain.
6. Aliens

I've had all of these (Okay, not number 6). Some more likely in your case, than others.

[panalman]

been called recently to a few doors where the client can't insert the key to lock a door, (4 times in the last 2 months) in each case it's simply been that the curtain has been turned a fraction. when i've turned it back it clicks square fine and stays in position, so the spring's fine. i tried slaming the doors but i can't make it jump out of it's set rest position and other than people tampering with the lock i can't think what's caused it. all the locks are in areas with limited access so even tampering seems like a long shot. any thoughts?

ps it's been 2 securefast rip offs, and the same old legge bs twice.

This does seem to be quite common I have had two in the last 2 months the first one being a Chubb 114 on a shop door I did the same as you checked all possibility’s and came up with the conclusion that is was an unauthorised entry attempt why? I will mention this at the end of the next one.

This one was a simple mistake a person working late in a first floor office and they had locked the door from the street behind them and on leaving the building they locked the office door and when she tried to open the lock on the main door she couldn’t.
When I arrived I looked through the keyway and straight away noticed the curtain had been turned a fraction so as in the previous case simply realigned the curtain asked her to hand the keys through the letterbox opened the lock and checked everything, which was fine.

However when looking at the two keys it was obvious what had happened the office door was a union 2101 and the front door was a legge BS not only that but the union key was not a genuine key and whoever cut it did so on the wrong blank as the stem of the key was protruding a lot further from the blade of a normal key and was also a tight fit in the curtain so after checking both locks I suggested that she may have tried to open the legge with the union key and she agreed as she noticed straightaway that the key was very tight and pulled it out rather quickly and on doing so must have dislodged the curtain I suggested she got a proper key cut and that was that.

O.K back to the Chubb this door had two Chubb’s fitted and only a couple of rim cylinder keys on the bunch so no possible mix up I came to the conclusion it was an unauthorised entry attempt because I remember a post a way back on this same forum where a locksmith was called out to a lock out on a Chubb 114.

And in that post he said he inserted his curtain breaker into the lock and the lock opened now why he was going in the wrong direction is bye the bye but the fact was there was no lever pack in the lock.

In one of the replies to that post from a very experienced warrant locksmith was "This is not as uncommon as you would think". On that note I will end this post.

[Shrub]

Ive had a few like that, various locks in various circumstances, it happens so far appart from each other i dont see a simularity between types of lock but i will note it from now on,

Ive always put it down to the wrong sized key being tried and thus turning the curtain with the tip of the key,

[capt.dunc]

they've all been odd, all turned close on 90 degrees. it's just very odd getting 4 so close. the spring and curtain have felt fine when turned back, and i know the curtain is fine on one of them for sure, since i had the lock on the bench to cut a key from it by hand.

[lockey1963]

Maybe a local lockey paying the local kids to cause mischief, has been done before and not unheard of.

panalman,

the only chubb lock that is often found with missing lever pack is the 3G110, it used to be a trick used by the not so ethical warrant guys, in case they came back with the gas warrant following the electric.

ive come across only 2 other 110 locks with no detainers, outside of warrants, one fresh from the box from suppliers, and one in a solicitors door, but the 110 is the only lock that would not easily give this immoral trick away.

[Professional Locksmiths]

Top of the list must be using the wrong key or a badly cut key. I have actually seen customers using a cylinder key instead of a mortice key. The tip can easily engage the curtain.
The Legge springs don't hold as firm as most others.

[capt.dunc]

it's not local kids, all of these have been in commercial premises and the last door in a chain from front door to office.

i've heard as well that the curtain on the 3g110 can wear so it doesn't throw the bolt fully, but i've never seen it in practice.

[acl]

I think the locky who was "dumb enough" to try their curtain breaker the "wrong " way was me! Not that stupid eh? but sorry for being an arse!
I come across the turned curtain all the the time on safes as well as locks and id say id agree with Gordons 1 and 5 possibly 2 and 3 (never 6!) but i normally find that when a curtain is turned it is due to someone using the lock/safe that isnt that used to useing it.
I personally love getting that call saying " i cant get my key all the way into the lock"

[EvoRed]

One word - kids. The last time I had this the customer showed me their bunch of keys and said the kids had been sticking the cylinder key in there so the result was not surprising.

[panalman]

panalman,

the only chubb lock that is often found with missing lever pack is the 3G110, it used to be a trick used by the not so ethical warrant guys, in case they came back with the gas warrant following the electric.

ive come across only 2 other 110 locks with no detainers, outside of warrants, one fresh from the box from suppliers, and one in a solicitors door, but the 110 is the only lock that would not easily give this immoral trick away.

Hi Lockey.
Yes I have heard of that and is in my book leaving premises insecure. If the locksmith has decoded the lock with the SV P+C why not just take a note of the detainer heights if a future visit is on the cards or on the other hand has picked it once should be able to do so again.

The post I was referring to was definitely a 114 as you wouldn’t use a curtain breaker on a 110 but I cannot seem to find it but in all fairness it was a while back and it wouldn't be the the first time I have got it wrong

Andy no I don't think you are a silly arse for going the wrong way if it was your post but I do remember quite clearly that the post read something like " Was called to a lockout on a Chubb 114 inserted my curtain breaker and the lock opened the customer was present and was not very impressed"

As I said it was something like that I am pretty sure. If warrant locksmiths are removing lever packs on the pretence of future visits it beggars believe, As it won’t take long for the criminal fraternity to pick up on this and by the sound of things already have.

Thanks.

[EvoRed]

This trick was certainly not done by those with the SV decoders!