my secure lock concept

[Avenger]

okay, so....i have been thinking about new lock concept that will make locks more secure.
so far i have done this, you evaluate how succesfull have i been.

so basically we have key that consists of three layers: isolator, circuit board, and another isolator.
on top of circuit board we put thing that will "accept" pins
pins are here of no practical use but to stop the key on its 1/8th position in the lock cylinder, and of course to conduct electrical energy.
why 1/8? no reason, just so you dont turn key forever. Blockers are here also to stop key from turning further than necessary.

here is conceptual picture of key which i made



So now i come to principal of lock, and why all the circuit boards and electrical energy.
Here for example we have 10 pin key(hole). We have circuit board that looks like this



we have connected 1top-2bottom and 3top-3bottom
for example, this is exactly combination that opens the lock. lock works that it has mechanism that requires special combination of wires being connected, and if only one isnt connected, the lock doesnt open.
this means that this combination opens the lock because it connects exactly those two wires (1-2, 3-3) that are required to open a lock.

keyhole would look like this



why magnet? no special reason, just to keep key in place when you put it in the lock. lock would of course have its own reserve battery in case power runs out.
so far i have come to this point, hope you like the concept, i would find it hardly pickable since there is no mechanism to test 10 pins which connect to another 10 in reasonable amount of time so that lock would open.
i think i didnt forget anything


questions?

[CompFX]

I have already thought of a way to bypass your lock.

Take your key circuit board and route all the lines to the bow of the key. Set it up for a com port to be plugged into a box that contains "dip switches" that would be computer controlled. Plug the box into the laptop and have a program that will try every possible combination until it unlocks. The dip switches would connect the top pins to the bottom ones.

I stole one of your images and modded it. I hope you dont mind.



I have no financial means to build such a bypass tool, but im sure someone somewhere does.

You might want to incorporate a way that if the wrong key is inserted it will be dead locked for 5 to 15 minutes. This way if someone does build such a bypass tool, it will take days or months to gain entry.

Just my thoughts on it.

CompFX

[Schuyler]

So, other mods / admins, do we remove hypothetical bypass of theoretical high security locks?

hehehe

[Avenger]

i have thought of such "picking" technique, however it wouldnt be done within reasonable amount of time, computers are fast, but i have been doing some hobbie cracking on my computer, and even though computer is fast, it takes time to brute-force some code.

considering locking 5-10 minutes...i was thinking of that either...i just thought of alarm going on instead of locking.

if you have to remove this post, please at least just move it to advanced part of forum. i dont know if im reinventing something that already exists but im pleased that i got to these conclusions myself

[DaveAG]

The two most obvious issues I can see here:

1.) Its too complicated. Why not just have two electrical contacts, and send a stream of data over a serial bus. There are lots of small integrated circuits that would be of use for this.

2.) It is very easy to copy a key. If this thing was ever built and took off commercially, you would be able to make a reader that would allow you to duplicate a key for this instantly.

If you replaced the 20 pins, with 2, used a serial bus at known bitrate, put in decent auditing, allowed keys to expire and had public-key cryptography for both signing, and authenticating the lock to the key (to prevent unauthorised duplication) you've re-invented Videx Cyberkey.

In my opinion, your system is similar to swipe-cards for access control, but is considerably more expensive to produce. The better swipe card systems (I believe) update the card as it is swiped through, locking out any duplicates, which your hardwired keys couldn't support.

[Avenger]

1. yes, i can see, however this was invented in my one day thinking period so i was just looking towards making something that could be perhaps useful. what you say IS a better solution, but concept is pretty the same.

2. well, isnt it very easy to copy key even now? every blank key can be modified within 2 minutes of time, if someone gets a hold of your key, he can open the lock one way or another.

does Videx Cyberkey find a practical use in door locks or somewhere else?
or perhaps my first question should be, is THAT an advanced topic, so i know what can i write

[-Aaron-]

In fancy smancy cars, they have chips in the key that sends a single to the car lock to tell it that it's the right key, and can unlock the lock with out the key.

So basically your idea is already replaced with something better.

[n2oah]

I didn't read any of the thread at all, but I know the answer:


It's not going to work.

[n2oah]

does Videx Cyberkey find a practical use in door locks or somewhere else?
or perhaps my first question should be, is THAT an advanced topic, so i know what can i write

Videx cyberkey isn't practical at all. It has no practical use, except for being a piece of crap. It's probably one of the worst electronic systems I've seen: expensive, impractical, not resistant to brute force, and it probably doesn't work for shit, either. Wait! That's all electronic access control systems!

[nothumbs]

Brute force can be fast. Look up - rainbow tables - for an example.

[Trip Doctor]

I would find it hardly pickable since there is no mechanism to test 10 pins which connect to another 10 in reasonable amount of time so that lock would open.

Depending on the circuit board in your lock, and how it works, it could be very easy to test, or very hard. (In the case that it's hard, CompFX got the solution).

[Shrub]

Avenger, dont be so defensive, you asked opinons and comments and thats what your getting although some may be a little over the top,

I give you credit becasue your thinking and its not some stupid laser activated satalite enabled spinning whatamacallit,

The suggestion of locking of moving your thread was said in gest which was denoted by the before the text, this is because if this was a real lock the bypass tool ideas would have to be put in the advanced forums but as this is a idea, a project, not a real lock its a joke to suggest we lock it up, thats all and were sorry if you got offended by it,

As regards your lock,

Other than the very well put explanation of compfx theres a couple of other things to be wary of,

Firstly you say that no computor is fast enough to calculate each combo and open it in a reasonable time, do you know the number of combinations your lock concept has that the computor would need to cycle through? now take that number and look at it against the number of commands a up to date pc can handle per second, software has been written for brute forcing systems that use electronics by simply running through the codes, they dont take that long at all on simple systems,

Have you thought about keys? your system says to me that if an owner wants a spare key it will have to be made to order or else the locksmith will have to carry a few blanks of each configeration just to be able to cover the odd one he gets asked to copy,

Where does the power come from? it strikes me that your system would cause a lockout situation only redeemable by destructive entry should the power fail,

Have you considered corrosion, wear and dirt? dirty contacts will stop this unit working as will corrosion of the internals, there will have to be a cover of the big keyway as well,

Destructive entry, a keyway that big crys out for kids to jam a screwdriver in it, even if they dont get in the lock will not be able to be opened due to the damage and again a big drill will be needed to remove the plug depending on how you plan to connect to the hardware,

You say youve been hacking, you dont say what sort of hacking but maybe put your skills to somthing as has been suggested, a simple module in a key that can be written to mating with electronics in the lock gives so many possabilities for key control its worth while looking into at least,
A simple module that says if key A is used that has code A on it then the lock will open but if key B is used which has code B on it the lock will not,

This means you have one key that doesnt change, its the programming on the key that does and that can be done with a simple handheld unit sold to locksmiths with the key blanks for example,
Once you get your head around that you then look into inductance power (i think it is, its late and im tired) whereby power is gained from simply placing the key near the lock and data transfered without connection,

I personally think you need to go back to the drawing board for the above reasons including the expense the systems will cost not only to the end user but also the middle men,
Dont forget its the customer you design for not yourself, the customer doesnt want a lock thats gogin to regulary fail due to dirt or corrosion and one they cant get duplicate keys for regardless of authorisation,

Ps, very good compfx, my first thought was the same, HOWEVER the best and simplest way of defeating this lock in its present drawing is to simply use a solid flat bar of metal so all the contacts are touching

[Avenger]

Avenger, dont be so defensive, you asked opinons and comments and thats what your getting although some may be a little over the top,

yes yes, i know....im just re-examining my ways of conceptual thinking

The suggestion of locking of moving your thread was said in gest which was denoted by the before the text, this is because if this was a real lock the bypass tool ideas would have to be put in the advanced forums but as this is a idea, a project, not a real lock its a joke to suggest we lock it up, thats all and were sorry if you got offended by it,

yes, i figured that out, i just thought if there was any possibility to move the thread, that i dont want that. Offended? no, in any way, i have no reason to be offended by that

and shrub...you always give some kilometer posts
however, you did present me some things i havent been aware of....thats perhaps why youre the master and im a padawan
if i have more suggestions about this, some improvements or anything, i will feel free to post them, hope you dont mind

[TOWCH]

What force retracts the blocking pins?

What's the reason for the magnet?

[TOWCH]

so far i have come to this point, hope you like the concept, i would find it hardly pickable since there is no mechanism to test 10 pins which connect to another 10 in reasonable amount of time so that lock would open.
i think i didnt forget anything


questions?

That's what Yale said when he invented the 6 pin pin tumbler lock.

Right now it seems like the idea is a 10 pin MIWA (EC?) without any magnets in the pins with a footnote to figure out how to make the pins move by running a ratsnest of copper tracks between contacts on a double sided PCB around some plated through holes.

One of the first points of failure when analyzing locks for vulnerabilities is the means of "unblocking" the blocking tumblers. The difficulty in pick proof lock design is in making this means of "unblocking" resistant to tampering.

Until you have that, it's not really a lock, just an idea for a type of key.

It's a good effort, and it's the right spirit to be in. Please, don't take offense to the criticism.

This is a forum dedicated in part to ruthlessly ripping apart lock designs. You put a lock design in front of us and we obliged.