Ask a Locksmith.

[Jryanruch]

I apprenticed fulltime at $12/hr and have come to the end of my apprenticeship making ~$18/hr (3 years later). The guys above me make ~$20, and the owner does alright for himself (judging by his lifestyle).

[1stACE]

that's a pretty good starting salary.. how skilled were you when you started the apprenticeship?

[Jryanruch]

I had just finished a BA and had pretty much zero mechanical aptitude. The Company was shorthanded and I came on as a temporary shop guy to cut keys and rekey locks until they could find someone skilled to hire.

The skilled guy never came along and they kept paying me more as I learned to do more...

[Raccoon]

Shrub, Zeke: I can appreciate where you two are coming from, but was hoping to address those real questions when they come before speculating on what-if's with a 2 page debate. Personally, I have no issue if you guys want to clean up the thread as needed. (there's a double implied meaning in that)

JackNco: Restricted keyways aren't usually specifically protected by criminal law against their sale or trade. More commonly, they are protected by civil patent law which prohibits their production by third party generics, and civil contract law which prohibits their illicit sale by authorized dealers/locksmiths.

That is, if a locksmith breaks their contract and sells restricted locks/keys to a person who should not be in possession, it is likely at the locksmith's own risk of losing their dealer status, with the possibility of civil restitution for any damages the Lock Co. wishes to claim. Specifically, it is the sale of key blanks and unauthorized duplications that manufacturers worry about.

If they are government protected locks/keys which were sold in surplus, simply hold onto your bill of sale as proof of authorized purchase. This should keep you out of trouble, though may not prevent the [unlikely situation] of some agency obtaining a court order to demand recollection of these items.

[1stACE]

that's pretty cool Jryanruch.
I'm thinking about doing an aprenticeship in a little while when I get better. It'll help me learn about more advanced things too.

[aussielocky]

Ya ive got one come to think of it. ive not seen it answered anywhere and as were asking questions i may as well ask this one.

Restricted key ways, specifically government and or military key ways on locks. where does the law stand on these (lets here it from both sides of the pond because most of us ship locks about all over the place. )

Is it illegal or OWN or just SELL them? is it actually illegal to make copies of the keys or blanks. and can you be in trouble for just owning the keys?

and then onwards from this, is it illegal to sell or ship these outside the country. is shipping and selling classed as the same thing?

and if any of this is illegal does it become legal after a certain number of years like the official secrets act?

after all i know a few people have S&G 833s and ive seen a few hi-shear locks about. im personally after an Ingersoll with an "M" key way if anyone has one? but thats not really part of the question.

All the best

John

Ownership - not an issue. Commercial duplication of keys - illegal and you are likely to get sued for infringement of patent by the maker if they find out. Private, one off duplication for your own needs does not generally have any problems under patent law. It's the same loophole that allows govt agencies to copy patented profiles using the easy entrie etc as it's a non commerical activity. (not that the makers would find out anyway).

I have an ingersoll M profile padlock that I might trade. Drop me a PM.

[jimb]

After I started writing this thread, I just noticed one by a similar name. However, the purpose of this thread is for general questions you might like to ask a locksmith.

Lockpicking101 is home to some very knowledgeable, honest and forthright locksmiths whose statements are subject to peer review on this site. If you have ever doubted the advice of your local locksmith, here's your chance for a second opinion.

Personally I think this is a good idea, but should be set up as forum and not a thread. We have Pick-Fu, Got Questions, General Chatter, etc... why not Ask A Locksmith? As Raccoon said, "Lockpicking101 is home to some very knowledgeable, honest and forthright locksmiths".

I realize this would require a lot more work from the mods, but I have seen Ask A Locksmith sites on the net and I think it would give a boost to this site. I know this is a hobby pickers site, but there are tons of other things discussed here, some even non-related.

The forum might need it's own rules or current ones might need added to. It doesn't have to be advice that is of an advanced material, but just answering questions that someone might have. The advice might be no more than you need to call a locksmith as special tools are needed to repair or open your lock.

JMO

[Shrub]

I think that anyone needing to ask a locksmith will not search to find this thread so will just post up a new one anyway,

If its a regular they will hopefully search before asking then either ask appropreatley or pm someone in the know,

Ive just had to clean a post up already so personally think this whole thing is starting to become a bad idea, this is a hobby site after all,

We will end up with loads of questions that start asking somthing then we reply asking where they are in the world as they didnt tell us (see above),
The ones that are worthy questions (see above) end up in here instead of perhaps a section more appropreate,

Im all for giving it a try but i think its doomed,

[zeke79]

Shrub, Zeke: I can appreciate where you two are coming from, but was hoping to address those real questions when they come before speculating on what-if's with a 2 page debate. Personally, I have no issue if you guys want to clean up the thread as needed. (there's a double implied meaning in that)

JackNco: Restricted keyways aren't usually specifically protected by criminal law against their sale or trade. More commonly, they are protected by civil patent law which prohibits their production by third party generics, and civil contract law which prohibits their illicit sale by authorized dealers/locksmiths.

That is, if a locksmith breaks their contract and sells restricted locks/keys to a person who should not be in possession, it is likely at the locksmith's own risk of losing their dealer status, with the possibility of civil restitution for any damages the Lock Co. wishes to claim. Specifically, it is the sale of key blanks and unauthorized duplications that manufacturers worry about.

If they are government protected locks/keys which were sold in surplus, simply hold onto your bill of sale as proof of authorized purchase. This should keep you out of trouble, though may not prevent the [unlikely situation] of some agency obtaining a court order to demand recollection of these items.

You are right, I was basing my post on "what ifs". Keep in mind though that this is not my first rodeo here. I have been around long enough to know how things will turn out.

I do however feel the overall idea is a wonderful one as many things you do are a result of alot of thinking. I should not bash the thread before something happens and I know that. Just a result of a bad day taken out on your post. I see your 'double meaning' and it is my job to keep stuff cleaned up.

In short, sorry for being an arse.

[JackNco]

cheers raccoon and aussielocky

[DaveAG]

To any UK based lockies:

At my current job, we have approx 50 ISEO 5 pin cylinders in a master key system, and we need to extend the system. The blanks are all unrestricted, and we have some details for it.

We know the codes from most of the change keys
We don't know the code for the master key, as it is in a very safe place (read all staff have copies, and the original is in the directors house "somewhere")

We don't know the bittings for anything.

The cylinders themselves are 35mm / 35mm with Thumbturn.



1.) Does anyone know the depths for ISEO 5 pin cylinders, as then with a micrometer, and an afternoon I could generate the bittings chart?

2.) Can anyone quote (per cylinder) for extending this system?

3.) Is it worth decoding the system and properly extending it, or would it be better to say "forget cross-keying" and just have the cylinder randomly pinned, then also pinned for the master-key?

[zeke79]

Do you have access to the existing system charts right now? That would be helpful in a case where we might recreate the system if lucky and make changes that you need.

[DaveAG]

Not a chance, as far as I can tell, we don't have any documentation for the system at all.

If my predecessor was contactable, we may have been able to find the locksmith that created it, but he isn't, we have no records in the office, and nobody knows much about it.

We have the physical keys, and the physical cylinders, but that is it really. As mentioned earlier, most of the change keys are originals, and thus have code numbers stamped on them. Everyone who has a master however, appears to have a copy. As nobody has ever lost (or admits to losing) a master, the original master (with the relevant codes etc) is either in the directors house, or never left the lockie.

There is no key-control whatsoever with this system, in fact there is nothing that would give even the most eagle eyed key-cutter a hint that the keys are part of a master key system. On my first day at work I had to take the cleaner's master and get myself a copy from Timpsons in the local ASDA. He didn't bat an eyelid.

[Raccoon]

Well, since you have access to every change key in the system, and whats more they have their code stamped right on the key, you can already take steps to re-creating the system. Better still, you can micrometer these original keys and cross-reference with the bitting info on the key, to determine what each number represents as far as cut depth.

Then take the master keys and micrometer them, to determine the master key's bitting.

Putting all of this information together will allow you to work out the key bitting array and add additional keys to the system.

If you like, I'd do this for you relatively cheap.

[zeke79]

Raccoon pretty much summed it up for you there. You would need to be able to identify all the change keys, the GMK, and any block masters etc. Basically the more you can tell us about the system the better it could be recreated.

Raccoon will do it reletively cheap so I would give him a shot as most lockies will not go through this process without charging a pretty hefty sum.

Raccoon,

If you do get the job and need some help or have questions ( you'll likely not need any as you seem to be pretty sharp on master systems) just drop me an email or get ahold of me on msn.