my secure lock concept

[raimundo]

I can see another problem that may have some relevance, the lock would not be suitable for all uses, as the key must be very durable and resist destructive forces such as the drunk who breaks off the key because his tiny mind tells him that force is the answer. this is a problem with most metal keys, and often its the correct key that is broken off because the drunk has not fully inserted it before deciding to go gorilla on it. However in internal doors in a place where drunks don't get in, something like your key concept, perhaps with some of the coding mentioned in reference to the key cards, it would be high security as long as its a tiny niche market, not the mass market, which would then make the type available to many hackers who would find something.
GM had a chip that was a resistor, this is a highly stable solid state simple electronic element, their keys read the resistance, a key such as yours could route wires to the bow of the key where a series of resistors could be manufactured in, .....well now its becoming more complex and more expensive to manufacture and duplicate at a locksmiths, any way, thanks for posting your concept, keep thinking about it and it will lead to something.

[raimundo]

Correction, mention of the GM resistor in the above post should say the lock read the resistor, not the key.

[Avenger]

What force retracts the blocking pins?

just a simple spring which also conducts el. energy

What's the reason for the magnet?

as i said before, no special reason, just to keep key in place
and pins are not magnetized...just that part which touches the end of key



and now that i think of it...yes, it may not be very resistant to anything

[Shrub]

Keep going and consider the ideas mentioned then hit us again with Mk2

Remember though complexity adds cost to manufacture and that will be the make or break of any system no matter how good it is,

[TOWCH]

What force retracts the blocking pins?

just a simple spring which also conducts el. energy

Not to beat a dead horse, but hopefully this is constructive.

Outside of memory metal springs, I don't think that's going to do anything.

Is your theory that the springs will act like an electromagnet and you will use ferromagnetic pins? I can't imagine that working. Electromagnet coils above each pin would be one way to go about it, but using springs as such is unlikely to work. It might be worth trying though. You could do a basic prototype with a drinking straw.

If the blocking pins are the means of making contact with the key, all it would take is 2 picks shaped like a comb to life them clear of the plug bypassing the lock entirely.

They would also break contact with the key when lifted which would break any contact with the key and just chatter never clearing the plug.

As far as lock design, if I was building one around your key premise:

I would have contacts on the front face of the lock for a DC power source. These contacts would run to strips of clips on either side of the plug, with a matching set of clips for each electromagnet. You use jumpers to set the the electro magnets ground, and redirect the possitive DC to the appropriate electromagnets using the key. Keep the blocking pins isolated from the keyway, make them ferromagnetic, and have the contacts seperate from the pins.

The front edge of the key could have a wirebrush or something for cleaning the contacts on insertion of the key.

The keyblank pattern could looks something like lattice with contacts along the edges, and plated holes in the center. MACS may be necessary. Cutting the key would involve removing section of track. Abrassive or chemically come to mind.

I had a lot of difficulty and perhaps misunderstanding what your idea was so if I essentially just repeated yours, it's a cool premise practicality and security aside.

And I'm late fore a dentists appointment.

[Avenger]

wait wait....maybe i f***ed up something, now i dont know what conduct means.
anyways...i wasnt thinking of any good/security purpose for the pins, pins are there just to stop the key.
now...conduct...i thought that that was the word which represent ability for one material to enable electricity to go through it, like metal for example.
electromagnet wasnt my intention TOWCH, pins wouldnt move via their magnetic ability, they would go up and down like in normal locks, because pins are touching the spring, and pins are touching the circuit board when you insert a key, and pin and spring are for example made of metal, so when you insert a key, circuit is connected because bottom (on my sketch) pins (which are more like south-east pins ) have connection via key with upper pins (north-west).

If the blocking pins are the means of making contact with the key, all it would take is 2 picks shaped like a comb to life them clear of the plug bypassing the lock entirely.

what do you mean? if you mess with pins, nothing is going to be opened since whole lock is not pin-dependable.

your idea is okay, but why the wirebrush? i cant imagine that
keyblank pattern WOULD look lattice like, however as posted before, it doesnt make lock computer_pick_proof because all possible combinations could be examined. i still dont know how many combinations are there....i failed my combinatorics test

[Shrub]

I think towch has the idea that its a form of pin lock and has missed the actual concept,

You havent messed anything up as i know that the pins are contacts and not part of the blocking portion of the lock, i thought he was of the idea on the last couple of posts but expected the light bulb icon saying he know gets its it but i think thats not happened,

Towch if im wrong im sorry but all the posts read like you think its a pin tumbler type lock and the pins are there to be picked which they arent,

Conduct in its simplest term in this useage means that the power will travel through the material as in conduct electricity, if it was a pan it would conduct heat etc, if your still stuck look it up in the dictionary

[Avenger]

i have been looking in the dictionary, however one term in croatian has 39567 terms in english so i was confused, glad i got it right

i was thinking, now that we are talking about pins, how would it look like to combine electrical with mechanical. for example, combine abloy with my principal, and now if you are just lockpicker with no actual knowledge of electrical principal, you may open the part which is mechanically locked, however, you would need another pair of tools, or another lockpicker to actually open electrical part of lock, which i consider would be pretty tricky. has anyone ever been trying to do something like that?
though i suppose it wouldnt be a cheap solution rofl

[Shrub]

Well then you will have the issues that towch suggested, mechanical as opposed to electrical secureness would be at the forefront of any issues involved with sich a system,

One or the other is my opinion unless you go for the wireless chip type transponder systems simular to what cars have but then you would need to have a differant system for the elecronics to operate as in say a vehicle its used as an electrical signal and not converted to mechanical at any point from the key going in the lock,

[mh]

for example, combine abloy with my principal, and now if you are just lockpicker with no actual knowledge of electrical principal, you may open the part which is mechanically locked, however, you would need another pair of tools, or another lockpicker to actually open electrical part of lock, which i consider would be pretty tricky. has anyone ever been trying to do something like that?
though i suppose it wouldnt be a cheap solution rofl

Have a look at this:
viewtopic.php?t=18719
The project hasn't quite started yet, but I hope it will in the near future.

As a comment on the idea of an attacker having no knowledge about part of the lock - that's 'security by obscurity' and will usually not be secure for a long time, as the knowledge will spread.
I believe it's much better to spread the knowledge upfront and involve real experts (like us here ) to help develop the best concept possible - hence the Open Source idea.

Cheers,
mh

[Nasydave]

Rather than your ten-pin electrical setup (which a puter or a blackberry could hack in about 1 minute), you would be better off having a card reader, and read a ten digit number from a card.

Oops, been done already...........

[greyman]

Hey all, let's not be overly critical of this idea. I think it's a good post and the drawings are a good effort. Most of the criticisms can be deflected, eg, someone said it would be easy to bypass by trying every combo. Well - since it's electronic, all you need is a time-out to defeat that idea - lock doesn't respond for say 3 minutes if 3 incorrect attempts are made.

One problem I can see is that with all those contacts, the design won't be very corrosion resistant.

[Avenger]

mh:
your concept is ok, i will have to finish reading th whole thread some other time, i have work to do these days.
considering "security by obscurity"...it was never my suggestion

greyman:
thx for support. corosion...is circuit board corosion-resistant? if yes, the only part that could corrode is lock itself. isolator materials dont corrode also right?
if lock is corosible (?) you can put the thing that car locks have...the one which prohibit you to see the lock inside...if you know what i mean. that will give it some sort of protection

[mh]

corosion...is circuit board corosion-resistant?

The thing with electrical contacts is that they indeed can corrode over time, it depends on the material. They could be e.g. gold-plated to prevent this. However, they could still get dirty.

In general, it's usually good design pratice to keep the number of contacts to a minimum.

Cheers,
mh

[Shrub]

Everything corodes whether its oxidisation or rusting you will find anythign metallic will at some point break down,