Bramah locks in US (preferably So. Cal)?

[n2oah]

18?!? Wow, that's quite a challenge. It gives me even more reason to respect Mr. Hobbs.
Are you sure it was a padlock that he opened? In LSS (fig LSS+118), it has a picture of a bramah cylinder with a caption "The bramah lock that was successfully opened by Alfred Hobbs".

[greyman]

N2oah - I've seen the Bramah Challenge lock with my own eyes! I can tell you it is a padlock. It is mounted on a display board from Bramah's shopfront window in the Sci museum. (There's a picture of it in my book)

[Kaellman]

Wow now that would be something. Seeing the actual lock Mr.hobbes opened. U think he cheated? I mean, he opened it without supervision

[greyman]

Whether he cheated or not was the subject of an extended debate between Hobbs, Bramah & Co and the committee supervising the contest. Hobbs won out in the end and got the money, but it was under considerable protest from Bramah & Co. Apparently Hobbs used forceps and bent some of the sliders. I imagine anyone would have got bored from watching him work on it for so long, so yes, he probably was unsupervised.

[n2oah]

Ah, I must be thinking the lock in his shop window and the lock give to Mr. Hobbs are the same thing. As for how it was picked, it wasn't. It was decoded (or so MWT thinks after examining it). I believe the forceps would be used to get the sliders out of the way, and to insert a decoding tool into the gap. Anyways, Hobbs still walked with his 200 pound reward in the end.

[greyman]

N2oah, I don't have access to LSS+ and there is not much on the Hobbs episode in vols 1 + 2 of LSS. I'd like to clear up the confusion though since it seems that either me or MWT are wrong about which Bramah lock was actually picked by Hobbs. All I know for sure is that the Piccadilly sign had a padlock on it and that the lock that was picked had 18 sliders. The sign refers to the lock on the actual sign, so I assume they meant the padlock.

I think Hobbs used a combination of picking and decoding, but not in the sense that he had an adjustable key or some more modern thing like the feeler tool you are mentioning. But we are getting into advanced territory. The main point is that Hobbs's main method was to apply a large amount of force (to what parts of the lock, I won't say), similar to the way he picked Chubb's detector lock. It is quite possible that in using this method, he left some scratches or bent some bits of the lock.

[aussielocky]

The padlock on display in the science museum is the actual lock, however it has been rebuilt and no longer contains the original insides. The original challenge lock was quite old when Hobbs picked it, and was far from up to date. It had iron slides, and a single spring.

After the lock was picked Bramahs rebuilt it, it went from a 18 slider, to a 13 slider with steel slides, a spring under every slider and heavily false notched.

Hobbs did not decode it, he picked it.

[n2oah]

After the lock was picked Bramahs rebuilt it, it went from a 18 slider, to a 13 slider with steel slides, a spring under every slider and heavily false notched.

Hobbs did not decode it, he picked it.

Obviously, this whole subject is up to much debate, but I must point out that today, bramah locks are still made with only 1 spring.

[aussielocky]

The single spring design is both a strength & a weekness .

A strength because it allows more sliders to be fitted in a smaller space, and is easier to make the sliders etc.

A weekness because once that single spring is compressed and locked down the sliders can be moved, set and tested at will ...

[rakemaster]

The crypto page on Bramah locks seems to think that the single spring design is probably a strength against ordinary picking, since when you'd test a slider it stays pushed down, rather than springing back.

How secure are these locks? They are certainly well made, and any attempt to manipulate them would have to be correspondingly precise. But they are not magic, and the design would seem to allow for many of the same kinds of attacks that work against other keyed locks. I can imagine several approaches.

Picking of the individual sliders appears to be possible with the same techniques used against tubular pin tumbler locks, using a "variable key" that allows the operator to set each slider to a fixed depth and feel which ones bind. (It does not appear to be feasible to modify a conventional pin tumbler tubular pick for the Bramah, however -- those locks have eight pin positions spaced at 45 degrees, while the Bramah has seven at 51.4 degrees). One complication is that there is only one spring, shared by all seven sliders, and so only the slider being pushed down the most (by the shallowist bitting) remains under spring pressure. That means that testing whether a slider is binding moves it slightly, and the lock would need to be "reset" each time a slider is tested. (A variable key design similar to that of Peterson's tubular pick would remember the current position of each slider and make this less tedious than it sounds). Another possibility is a pick that "grabs" each slider so that it can be pulled back up into the original position after testing.

Decoding by shimming also appears feasible. I found it is possible to insert a .0015 inch shim alongside each slider, and, with proper control of the angle, feel the depth of the true notch. Measuring the depth at which the shim hits the notch effectively decodes that position. Once decoded, it should be (relatively) simple to produce a corresponding key.

But I don't know. I've never even seen one in person (yet)!

Rakemaster

[greyman]

The padlock on display in the science museum is the actual lock, however it has been rebuilt and no longer contains the original insides. The original challenge lock was quite old when Hobbs picked it, and was far from up to date. It had iron slides, and a single spring.

After the lock was picked Bramahs rebuilt it, it went from a 18 slider, to a 13 slider with steel slides, a spring under every slider and heavily false notched.

Hobbs did not decode it, he picked it.

Can you tell us where this info is sourced from? It is an interesting twist in the story!

[aussielocky]

The padlock on display in the science museum is the actual lock, however it has been rebuilt and no longer contains the original insides. The original challenge lock was quite old when Hobbs picked it, and was far from up to date. It had iron slides, and a single spring.

After the lock was picked Bramahs rebuilt it, it went from a 18 slider, to a 13 slider with steel slides, a spring under every slider and heavily false notched.

Hobbs did not decode it, he picked it.

Can you tell us where this info is sourced from? It is an interesting twist in the story!

Reading the full contempary account in George Price will detail the exact nature of the lock when Hobbs was faced with it, also from memory it mentions that the lock was modernised and placed back in the shop window afterwards.

But for direct evidence you need look no further that the video made for ' What the Victorians did for us '. In that the lock is stripped down by the Science Museums in house locksmith, and the parts clearly laid out. Study that video and you can clearly see the type & number of the slides etc, compare that to the reference works of the 1850's and there you have it, a final and definative answer ..

[Kaellman]

Im holding a long thread about just that but i cant find it on the net. Ill keep on digging incase no one else finds a good link.

In the meanwhile check this out: http://www.antique-locks.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=154
Antique-locks.com is a great forum that i recommend to everyone

[n2oah]

In the meanwhile check this out: http://www.antique-locks.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=154
Antique-locks.com is a great forum that i recommend to everyone

Great link, Kaellman! Look at the end of the key...

[greyman]

Reading the full contempary account in George Price will detail the exact nature of the lock when Hobbs was faced with it, also from memory it mentions that the lock was modernised and placed back in the shop window afterwards.

But for direct evidence you need look no further that the video made for ' What the Victorians did for us '. In that the lock is stripped down by the Science Museums in house locksmith, and the parts clearly laid out. Study that video and you can clearly see the type & number of the slides etc, compare that to the reference works of the 1850's and there you have it, a final and definative answer ..

I thought it might be in Price's book. There is so much in there!

A friend told me about that show, but I haven't seen it. I will definitely have to chase down a copy. Thanks for the info