stubborn key, key bitting adjustment

[mash0101]

hello,
I've come across this site in my search for info on a stubborn key I have. It is for my apartment doors. It requires shaking and jimmying to open the locks. This problem is not just one lock. Sometimes vigorous, sometimes light jimmying will get the locks to open. It's an SC4. An Ilco copy of the key won't work at all.

The building is new, under 3yrs old, I assume the locks are new.

I've taken a caliper to the cuts on my keys. The depths seem to be slightly off on each key. Some as much as +/-.009".

Which brings me to the big question. What are some wise, experienced rules about adjusting cut depths on a key that isn't quite right? Like my 'original' apt key, or like the copy that doesn't work at all. Get a blank and cut to the closest, possibly higher bit depth? Or always cut to the next lower bit depth?

My thought is that jimmying the key means that some bit depths may be too low.

I'm not capable of pulling the cylinder, but filing a bad key or a blank with a caliper in hand is within my skill set.

[quickpicks]

Your best bet is to go to whoever manages your building and request a new key. You seem to know quite a lot about your stubborn key but why so much effort to fix this key? a new one could easily be obtained via management.

[mash0101]

You can see I read and research key info fairly easily. I probably know enough about key bitting to be 'dangerous' as the saying goes about knowledge, but not enough to know better.

Yes, I've tried 2 other keys from management...same story. The keys in question are for the entry, stairwells, essentially the common areas. Even the manager has to wiggle her key. The 3 keys I have even have some cuts that differ as much as .005" between them. Schlage specs .002" depth tolerance. Since management knows their keys also need to be jimmied, I'm doubtful that I'll ever get a key that works like butter. Maybe their master set is the problem, and the subsequent copies of those masters are the issue. What I'd like to try is to make a customized key to eliminate the need of jimmying a key to make it work.

What I haven't thought of until now is the possibility that each of these common area locks differ alot, which is causing the trouble with the keys. Maybe a locksmith issue, not a key issue.

Are the pins going to loosen up by everyone jimmying their keys, or are the pinstacks going to get worse? Maybe I should petition that management rekey the locks, but there's no fun in that. As irritating as it is, I certainly could live with the problem of these keys. But, it's interesting to find out what it may take to make a key work better.

[zeke79]

Go to a locksmith. Tell them the key does not work well. Have them cut you one by code.

If management complains, tell them they should have had a restricted system installed.

[freakparade3]

Your problem is the keys are cut to low. That is why you have to "jimmy" the key. You said your managers key has the same problem. The management making you a copy of their key that also does not work correctly will not fix the problem. Making a copy of a poorly cut key just gives you a poorly cut copy. Take your key to a locksmith. He will be able to decode the key and make you a proper code cut key.

[HeadHunterCEO]

deal with the lock instead

load the cylinder with bottom pins point down in place of drivers

this allows a little flexibility and goes a long way when dealing with multiple mis-cut key scenarios
esp when there are 100 keys issued already.

[RodVT]

Rather than taking a new blank and filing, you may be able to peen one of your duplicates and raise the cuts by a few thousandths....

Also, since it is a masterkeyed system (about which I admittedly know little) could it be a problem with short master pins that are damaged or missing? That would suggest that cylinder maintenance is needed I think.

Three year old locks, you wouldn't think the keys wuold be worn out yet.

Let us know how you make out.

Rod

[zeke79]

deal with the lock instead

load the cylinder with bottom pins point down in place of drivers

this allows a little flexibility and goes a long way when dealing with multiple mis-cut key scenarios
esp when there are 100 keys issued already.

Great advice. Not a true solution but can be a good temporary work around in a pinch or when dealing with locks that are plain trash and do not operate well even with keys cut within .001 or .0005" of spec.

[mash0101]

Well, got a code cut key, coded to the equal or next shallower bit... Doesn't work at all. The locks at my complex are wonky. I found one door that does open with a previous copy that until then didn't open any doors. I'm open to more conjecture regarding how to work around jimmying a key, but after spending $18 for the codecut, I'm done experimenting with keyshops.

This issue is like a puzzlebox challenge. I really don't care about what's in the box, I'm finding it interesting to try and get into it.

Maybe I can use the code cut key and try impressioning with it? Other suggestions? Again, any lock or cylinder work is not an option. I'm just a resident in the building.

[Rodfather23]

Maybe I can use the code cut key and try impressioning with it?

you might be able to achieve this.....my pippin file in currently on backorder through foley belsaw, but I've had a little luck just using a regular small chain saw file to actually make the cuts, and then wrapping 600 or 400 grit sand paper around the file in order to polish the cuts. You could start with the polishing part since yours is already cut. I'd get a few copies made of the code cut key though before trying this. As RodVT said, you might be able to take a punch and peen under the cuts (of the copy that the management gave you)

I just reread your last post while I was typing this......I think you were suppose to get the code cut key cut to the higher height, instead of the next shallower one. So nevermind the impressioning part.......try to peen the one management gave you.

[Rodfather23]

Jimmysmith just posted this link in the got questions forums. I'm guessing the specs it has for schalge is for the SC4 keyway also....but someone correct me if I'm wrong.

http://web.archive.org/web/20050910012217/www.dlaco.com/spacing/tips.htm

[lunchb0x]

Well, got a code cut key, coded to the equal or next shallower bit... Doesn't work at all. The locks at my complex are wonky. I found one door that does open with a previous copy that until then didn't open any doors. I'm open to more conjecture regarding how to work around jimmying a key, but after spending $18 for the codecut, I'm done experimenting with keyshops.

This issue is like a puzzlebox challenge. I really don't care about what's in the box, I'm finding it interesting to try and get into it.

Maybe I can use the code cut key and try impressioning with it? Other suggestions? Again, any lock or cylinder work is not an option. I'm just a resident in the building.

if you got the key cut to the next shallower cut and it still doesnt work try using that key and impression it for the lock, it probably is not that much out

[Rodfather23]

[quote="mash0101"]
My thought is that jimmying the key means that some bit depths may be too low.
quote]


Also.........if you wrote this in your 1st post..(which sounds right to me also) why in the world did you get it cut to the next lowest cut when you had it cut by code?


As with anything the same rule applies.....its always a lot easier to take some more off a cut.......rather than finding a way to raise the cut.

[lunchb0x]

i read it the same as you did at first, but i think he means shallower instead of deeper, so if his key had a 5 cut, it is now a 4

[raimundo]

jimmieing to me means a type of pry bar uses to break into things, what you are probably doing with the key is what I would call jiggling, which would mean the cuts are too low.

Ask a key cutter to do this, Wrap the end of a matchbook cover over the straight bottom edge of the key and put it in the stylus jaw like that, this will raise the key about .025" off the bottom of the jaw, and a copy made will also be .025" higer. then you can impression from there, it may be that only one or two cuts are too deep.

Very likely a previous tenant was losing keys perhaps often, and the management was not sophisticated enought to know that they have to hang on to one of the original keys, so copies were made of copies until it got to enough generations that it was losing shape.

It could also be a mal adjustment in the key machine that makes the copies, but no, a copied key is not without some tolerance in precision, and if you copy a copy you compound that until after a few generations it loses the fit.