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Bumping Medeco

Information about locks themselves. Questions, tips and lock diagram information should be posted here.

Postby UWSDWF » 29 Jul 2007 6:02

well that was a totally useful post there global

'believe me... cause i say so... bilock kicks arse'



not to say i don't believe you just that post came off poorly...
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DISCLAIMER:repeating anything written in the above post may result in dismemberment,arrest,drug and/or alcohol use,scars,injury,death, and midget obsession.
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newton

Postby raimundo » 29 Jul 2007 7:41

About newton, a key driven into a keyway will produce a bump that raise the pins perpendicular to the force applied on the key, but a chisel tip pin can also freely rotate and driven by a bumper, it may rotate to the quarter turn stop and bounce back, with the finger of the sidebar tending to catch in the groove.

what has not been said about the aloa bumpers is the state of the pins in the lock, how many security pins, mushroom and serrated, and how many false notches were on the keypins, obviously the false notches would make the sidebar more difficult to set.

How many strikes did it take, or just how many minutes did it take, and what kind of bump hammer.

Since we're talking medeco, its fair to ask about the security pins, without this becoming too "advanced" I just want to know if the test was up against the best medeco has or if it was using something that medeco has since improved. The original medeco didn't even have false notches for the keypins if memory is correct, does anyone have information to the contrary?

Medeco started putting one deep cut on every key a long time ago, look at your medeco key and see if its not there, somewhere on the key is a deep cut. this was done after the medeco was picked, when the illusion of invincibility was punctured.

Deep cuts can prevent easy bumping because the tiny peaks that lift the pins can overlift a deep pin.
Wake up and smell the Kafka!!!
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Postby Shrub » 29 Jul 2007 8:08

I thought i had made a post on this yeserday but cant find it :? I cant remember what i said then but will say what i think now,


Lets look at this in its simplest terms,

Regardless of known pins or keys or depths etc etc the actual question or responce is that medeco can be bumped.

This is indeed fact as a lot of us have seen it done, theres no reason to fudge up videos or texts etc as it can easily be proved or not and in this case it has been widely and openly prooved,

The discussion whether the cuts, depths, angles etc were known isnt for this section but whats the differance, the suggestion is that they cant be bumped which has been disprooved, how hard is that to understand,

Now i do understand that for interests sake and also commercial aspects by way of locksmiths using it on the job the rest of the details are important and of interest,

I dont know the actual full details but it seems to me that there has been a system workd out where a lock can be walked up to and bumped open with very little or in fact no prior knowledge of that particular lock internals,

As i say that part of things is discussion for elsewhere and as already asked can we please keep the technical questions down on this thread,


Global, i think the members who have posted doubts arent calling you or all the others involved with doing this a lier, they are merely contributing to the discusion with their thoughts, i dont recollect anyone saying 'Global your a liar, it cant be done, i know for definate and all this is BS' its been suggested that some can not comprehend how it is possable and others have questioned some aspects of it, i dont think any of them can deny the evidence out there they just want to understand it a bit better but perhaps gone around it the wrong way, its not fair to go off so quickly on them (i know im just as bad),

Uwsdwf, shall we go through some of your most useful posts?

I understand Global has Bi-lock close to his heart, i admit it pissed me off to begin with hearing about it but ive grown to understand this facination with it because im the same over lever locks, i have yet to recieve my first Bi-lock but hope to have it in the next few days and then i can see for myself what a lock it is, i hope i cant pick it and if i cant i too shall be praising its features,


Lets keep the technical stuff out of it and maybe get a thread gogin in the advancd forums about that, this at the moment is purey a yes or no type odf discussion on the actual point of if they can or cant be bumped regardless of intimate knowlede of the lock,
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Postby JackNco » 29 Jul 2007 10:08

OK well I started thinking the idea was just a basic 999 key (or 666 as it would be in medeco before any of you corrects me on that) and bumping with that. which I think we can all agree is now completely dismissed.

Then it was explained that with prior knowledge of the key it could be done. which to me seems pointless as with access to the key you may as well just make a key. unless you are (as in this case) proving the theory. I do have an idea on this that might hinder this which ill put forward if we get a thread in the advanced forums but out here it gives away to much about how people tackle medecos (and i am not claiming i can do that. but i think i understand the concepts)

As for the idea of bumping a medeco with no prior knowledge of the key/internals. im not arguing that apparently there is a way but I personally have no idea how you could do that. im sure there will be plenty of ideas flying around in the advanced section within a few hours.

All the best

John
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Postby LockNewbie21 » 29 Jul 2007 11:34

It's actually extremely easy if i may interject, to bump or pick them if you do these -->

Pull your head out your arse
Study them, I am a lockie so I did it to further my knowldge
PRACTICE PRACTICE


Anyone differs in my opinion like that other guy awhile ago who callled me out.. Send me a Medeco and pin it as you will. I will open it.

There like anylock, they open with the right tools and knowldge.

As for Bumping, tin foil, precut 666's, and a needle file will bump them in as fast as you can file.
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Postby LockNewbie21 » 29 Jul 2007 11:37

Jackno I just read my post this was not directed towards you or any other expiernced member just to make sure noone has taken it wrong, its Just for noobs or stubborn people who say pampers are diapers of there choice for outstanding leak protection. :lol:
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Postby JackNco » 29 Jul 2007 11:45

:P I was half way through planning my response to that when i read the second message. although I would disagree they are easy. annoyingly any idea clicked in place last night based on videos ive seen of you opening them. But unfortunately most of my decent locks are sitting in a bag at a friends house.

All the best

John
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Postby Shrub » 29 Jul 2007 12:54

Right one of you lot get gogin on the thread in the advanced sections, and keep the name calling out of it,
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Postby LockNewbie21 » 29 Jul 2007 15:22

Will do shrub

I know right jackno :P , I read it and even to an arrogant person like me it sounded insulting, so i had to double post to make sure I didn'tt anger the regs. in here... or no more newbie :o :lol:
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Postby globallockytoo » 29 Jul 2007 15:48

shrub wrote: i have yet to recieve my first Bi-lock but hope to have it in the next few days and then i can see for myself what a lock it is, i hope i cant pick it and if i cant i too shall be praising its features


I found out today that an instructor at ALOA claimed to have successfully picked the New Gen Bilock (albeit with knowledge of the depths).

No proof yet...but this man is a respected colleague...I have no reason to think he may be BSing me.

Shrub, theorettically it can be picked. I dont doubt that it will give you a run for your money. You may even succeed.....but repeatedly...doubtful.

What with the amount of time required to perform this holy task (tsk tsk), it is unlikely that few if many will ever be successful in picking it.
Good luck
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Postby LockNewbie21 » 29 Jul 2007 15:54

I will agree with global locky.

I would love a go even at the older bilocks.

That friggen assa twin Melvin sent me still refused to budge.

Not I an working on a schlage primus, and if it wern't for the regional sidebar weekness like assa twins, I would say there great.

As for picking on I am stumped I just jotted down a few measurements and see if I can find a tool to help.

As of now.. I envy Nick since he got one open :cry: :P
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Postby Afisch » 29 Jul 2007 16:11

This is a topic which really interests me, despite bumping being something i've done all of twice (yale) and found it rather unsatisfying the workings and subsequennt flaws are inrieging. I've read the thread but I was wondering if anyone could sumerise it for me / others as i'm slightly confused, although it does seem its largely theory. So whats generaly thought at the moment would be great :) along with maybe any other ideas. Ok here goes.
Can you bump a Medeco rim cylinder with both Top and bottom pins as well as a sidebar (e.g. the 10 series or any similar) with a Medeco blank with correct wardings and the main cuts and sidebar depths to maximum?
Does it, as (I expect) bump like a normal lock if you have the correct warding and sidebar cuts and 666 cuts on the key?
Have they solved the regional blanks problem i.e. all locks in one area has the same sidebar cuts for easier rekeying? Is it possible to bump the same style lock as before by cuting sidebar depths in a standard keyblank, with no previous cuts, to fit any lock of one type if you know the general cut angles for that type of lock? Thanks for taking the time to read / answer it took long enough to write.
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Postby Eyes_Only » 29 Jul 2007 16:52

I don't think I can answer the first few questions without being chastised by the Mods but as for you last question, no the regional problem inherent in Primus and ASSA does not exist with a Medeco.

Medeco does not use a side cut on their key to actuate the sidebar. The bottom pins are what controls them by having to rotate on its vertical axis by the angled cuts on the key. So a blank key for a Medeco really is a blank key thats almost completely useless unless you have a deep understanding of the lock.

Although this may not be true any longer in a way because the protrusion on the key blank that interacts with the slider in the new m3 is controlled to a point by the factory, but most people disregard the new slider design as a joke only to extend the key patent so this may not even matter.
If a lock is a puzzle, then its key is the complete picture
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Postby LockNewbie21 » 29 Jul 2007 19:30

but most people disregard the new slider design as a joke only to extend the key patent so this may not even matter.


so true mate.

Paperclips get a real use in lock picking for once... nay the 007 movies :lol:
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Postby Gordon Airporte » 29 Jul 2007 20:20

If, indeed, Medeco cam locks can be bumped (and I really, really want to see how that works) then it's possible that the sidebar on a Schlage Primus could be bumped the same way (plus the upper pins bumping the usual way.) That's two tough locks down for the price of one :-).
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