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measuring pin height after picking locks

Having read the FAQ's you are still unfulfilled and seek more enlightenment, so post your general lock picking questions here.
Forum rules
Do not post safe related questions in this sub forum! Post them in This Old Safe

The sub forum you are currently in is for asking Beginner Hobby Lock Picking questions only.

measuring pin height after picking locks

Postby mooseface » 31 Jul 2007 8:36

This is my first real post although I have spent many hours reading this wonderful forum over the last few days. Forgive me if it is an inappropriate question or in the wrong place.

Having just opened my current favourite lock (a six pin Banham with 5 mushrooms, as I looked in to the keyway with the cylinder partly turned, It occurred to me that the pins were now a perfect image of the key. Obvious really I know. I was wondering if there is a suitably steady and accurate tool which would measure the height of each pin, i.e. the depth of the cut, and allow a perfect replacement key to be made? Is this ever done or is there a much simpler way?

I am just curious as I have no real desire to have keys for any of the locks that I pick.
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Postby Shrub » 31 Jul 2007 8:40

Yes,

Hang on 2 ticks while i lock this and go check somthing, ill be back in a min,
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Postby Shrub » 31 Jul 2007 9:03

Right ok, this is the score,

Lock decodeing is a discussion for the advanced forums and always has been.

What you ask however is somthing slightly differant to what we would normally think of as lock decodeing,

Mention lock decodeing and its normally of a closed lock so you can get it open, what you want is to generate a key to an opened lock, this is differant and ill explain why before i give you some info,

A picked lock has been picked, there remains no further breach of security unless the objective is to determine a master key biting, if the key is used the pins can not be measured as the key is still in the keyway so the lock must be picked,

Due to this im gogin to alow this thread for time being, if another mod or admin think otherwise dont feel your treading on toes and simply lock it up this is just my decision here and now as the thread stands here and now, if it gets to decodeing locked locks it will be locked up,

I back this decison up with a couple of threads ive just found by a quick search (search you noob :P seriously have a search for the other threads theres not many and they are worth reading :wink: ),

So now on to my advice, info whatever and i suggest this is maybe the top and bottom of it as i will try to cover most things we would allow,


Firstly i can not reccomend any greater to simply have a look around the tool salers websites and gab some ideas, most tools are for locked vehicle locks but the ideas can often be transposed, check out the newsparkling site for a rough idea then have a look around multipick etc,

You will see a couple of things that look good from a tool that actually draws the working key on a sticker as you pull it out the lock, this sticker then gets stuck to a blank so you can cut it out correctly, tools that contact the wafers of pins with wires that can be measured are the common one and there are other more advanced tools that John Falle makes which we cant go into here,

The draw back of all these is that they are intended for locked locks and on an open lock wouldnt work,
It wouldnt work because of course a tool will slide past pins in a lock if they can move freely, jam those pins as in a picked lock and you now cant get the tool to slide in the keyway, this reders all but the simplest methods of reading useless,

If you want to decode a picked lock the easiest way would be simply to familerise yourself with it intimately, get the space and depths and learn them, get a plug if you can loaded with one of each pin and then a bag of the other heights to try if more than the number of pins the lock takes,

Now with practice you should be abe to tel by useing a hook pick how high that pin is, this can then be roughly cut to a key and then impression it down or you can cut a key to code and simply move down a cut each try as its likely all the stacks are off than just one,

There are other home made tools that ive not seen commercially but again maybe for the advanced forums, personally in the past ive made wire tools that act like the sputnik tool you should search the net for (we do not allow the discussion of sputniks in the open forums) but you need to find the correct wire and way of doing it or else you end up with a varying measurement as the wire bends, in the advanced section there is a thread a member has made on his own version of his and its been a great project but i wont mention his name here as he may not want to discuss it,

Other methods are coloured pins in the locks often give away the code,


So a rough basic post of hot air really, now ive typed it out its maybe not for the open forums after all but ill stand by what ive said as a picked lock decode is differant to a locked lock decode and also the lock is already picked open so isnt so much of a security issue, a open lock that allows you to remove the key resets the pins so again useless decodeing it with an open lock decoder,

Hope this helps in some way, no there arent many if any at the moment picked lock decoders but it can be done and also many of the locked lock decoders can be re-designed to work on an open lock,

Have fun with one of my favorite subjects, lock decodeing 8)
Shrub
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Postby mooseface » 31 Jul 2007 9:21

Thanks Shrub for such a comprehensive and fast reply. I am just going out but will read it in more detail tonight. It is very nice to get a reply from you that is not locking the tread or telling me that I should have found my answers by searching like so many that have gone before me :wink: . Anyway just wanted to say thanks before someone posted a link to the sputnik or something, and got the thread locked!
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Postby JackNco » 31 Jul 2007 9:45

very interesting. so based on what you have said it should be possible to cut hooks with a sharp curve. and key way and pinning allowing you could insert different hooks under the pins so that when then tang of the hook is flush against the bottom of the key way and touching the pin, you could then measure the rood depth and get the pin size?

Of course that would require a different set for each key way and pin set. and keeping to the rules it would be impossible to use this as an "active" (i think i kind of made that up) decoder as you would have to go through every pin combination before you decoded the lock if it was not picked.

John
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Postby Shrub » 31 Jul 2007 11:07

Well it can be read in a few ways, i ddint mean that but yes it should work,

What i meant is that on locks with the bigger steps in cuts you can get to know how to judge if the hook you are useing is going up to the pin as much as a number 1 or 2 pin, its no good on locks with 2 thou incremental cuts of course but cheaper locks are ok once you know the lock and work on them a lot,

You suggested method would be better of course but as you say youll end up with a van full of probes lol


Moosey, its not i like locking, bollocking, removeing or moveing things its just that we have rules and im here to enforce those rules, if someone cant be bothered reading them and post up asking how to open a safe then im not gogin to pull any punches in tellign them their being an arse and locking the thread,

Im a reasonable guy and very approchable but at least first have a read of the rules,

I checked what we already had on this subject and had a think about it and luckily for us all (its my favorite subject) ive decided there simply isnt the urgency to lock somthing like this,

If you ave any questions when you get around to reading it you kmnow where ill be...... on the lock button :P J/K
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Postby mooseface » 31 Jul 2007 13:56

Moosey, its not i like locking, bollocking, removeing or moveing things its just that we have rules and im here to enforce those rules, if someone cant be bothered reading them and post up asking how to open a safe then im not gogin to pull any punches in tellign them their being an arse and locking the thread,


Yes I know that really, just having a laugh. I actually enjoy reading some of the stupid posts where the deserving get a bollocking though.

Back to the topic. Rather than Jack's suggestion requiring a 'van full of probes', perhaps a single probe could be made, rather like the depth measuring end of a vernier caliper. It would have one point on the end of a hook and a wire that would slide down a little forward of the point. This way you could measure the height of the pin that was exposed in the keyway. One tool for any lock (that had enough room for the tool.) Obviously this is all far more complicated than judging it with a single hook but would not require the experience.
mooseface
 
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Postby mooseface » 31 Jul 2007 17:57

OK, I had had time to read Shrub's post in full. Thanks for pointing me in the direction of newsparkling, a very useful site for pictures of tools. I have also found a couple of previous threads on the subject :oops: although I may not have found them if I had not asked here first. It is much easier to find things when you know what it is you are looking for.

Particularly useful is this thread: http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?t=6539& which seems to have it pretty much covered. It is nice to see that my idea was not an entirely daft one though, even if it has been done before.
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Postby Gordon Airporte » 31 Jul 2007 20:05

Shouldn't it be possible to impression the profile in clay or something? I guess this would only work in keyways where you can get a device that's deep enough to read all of the depths underneath the pins without disturbing any of them, then you can lift it...
Or maybe a profile-gauge-type device like this:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx ... 2936,42958
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