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Little help

Picked all the easy locks and want to step up your game? Further your lock picking techniques, exchange pro tips, videos, lessons, and develop your skills here.

Postby Eyes_Only » 14 Jul 2007 8:24

Yeah cos when you learn on a cut-away lock you train yourself to pick the lock mainly by sight and not by feel and a little bit of hearing for it.

So when you get so used to picking a cut-away you don't reinforce in yourself the hightened sense on touch. And then when you pick a regular lock you're at a loss since you can't see anything when that has become 90% of how you gained any kind of feedback from the lock when picking.

The only thing a cut-away is good for in my humble opinion is in locksmith training videos and junk where it is used to show complete novices how a lock actually function from the inside. Other than that it is a $30 to $70 waste of money for hobbyists. Unless it is for a high security lock like a Primus, ASSA, Emhart, etc cos they're just so cool. :D :wink:
If a lock is a puzzle, then its key is the complete picture
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Postby Eyes_Only » 14 Jul 2007 8:26

Yeah cos when you learn on a cut-away lock you train yourself to pick the lock mainly by sight and not by feel and a little bit of hearing for it.

So when you get so used to picking a cut-away you don't reinforce in yourself the hightened sense on touch. And then when you pick a regular lock you're at a loss since you can't see anything when that has become 90% of how you gained any kind of feedback from the lock when picking.

Truthfully, the only thing a cut-away is good for is in locksmith training videos and junk where it is used to show complete novices how a lock actually function from the inside. Other than that it is a $30 to $70 waste of money for hobbyists. Unless it is for a high security lock like a Primus, ASSA, Emhart, etc cos they're just so cool. :D :wink:
If a lock is a puzzle, then its key is the complete picture
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Postby screamdud » 14 Jul 2007 13:22

Sorry guys. I thought that cut-away locks are good because u can see what is going on while u feel it so that when you pick a not cut-away lock, you know what is going on inside the lock. Sorry if that was bad advice, thats just what I had thought.
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Postby RangerF150 » 14 Jul 2007 14:22

screamdud wrote:Sorry guys. I thought that cut-away locks are good because u can see what is going on while u feel it so that when you pick a not cut-away lock, you know what is going on inside the lock. Sorry if that was bad advice, thats just what I had thought.

Well just for fun , I will agree with you :-)

For all those that suggest cutaway locks are a bad idea:

Not everybody has the same visualization skills that you may posses.
A good ability to visualize something, in this case the inner workings of a lock , and your interaction with it, is essential to successful lockpicking.

A cutaway provides the visual aid that many people need to "learn" how their interaction with the lock affects the pins while picking.

Rather than the perceived opinion that this will lead to an inability to pick a "normal" lock , it enhances the persons chances of picking such a lock having spent some time using a cutaway.

You could attempt to learn many things without visual aid - the piano, typing skills, the guitar etc., etc.
And while learning to play , say, a piano it's not essential to look at the keyboard, it's helpful, and many people do so while learning.
While learning to type, it's also helpful to look at the keyboard at times, so you can map the keyboard.
Your brain learns where the keys are both by sight and by touch, one helping the other, so that in the end your brain can use one sense only.

Most people learn things by sight - when this ability is removed, it's harder for most people to learn as quickly - this is pure logic, and the reason we have sight!

A cutaway lock provides the means for people who cant visualize fully what is going on in a lock while they pick it.
They can see the result of their actions, this "completes the circut" as it where. Helping them understand in a visual way their progress as they learn to pick the lock.
Far from hindering their progress, as suggested it would help such people.
It would be foolish to suggest that someone who "looked" at the keyboard while learning to play the piano could never play without looking at it, as this would be the result if we where to apply the same logic.
Likewise, it would be impossible to find your way around your house in complete darkness, because you learned to find your way around the house with the aid of light in the first place !
Having learned to find your way around the house with the aid of light is exactly what gives you the ability to find your way around in the dark, without falling down the stairs!!!

People with good visualization skills, may find it hard to understand that some people do not possess this skill.
For these people it's more than helpful to use a cutaway.
Sure, you will eventually have to try a standard lock, but the brain will now have a very good picture of what is happening inside the lock.
Helping to overcome the main hurdle for many people new to lockpicking .

And while looking at videos of someone with a cutaway may be helpful, it lacks the tactile feedback, and the closeness of a cutaway, it's visual only.

The cutaway is both visual and tactile, when one is removed ( the visual element) the brain is now equipped to compensate for this.

That's my thesis :-)
Proudly posted on a FreeBSD powered laptop :-)
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Postby simon_G » 14 Jul 2007 14:27

that does all make sense, but isent it possible to learn how to do it regardless? its a test of determination at least..

fortunatly though im pretty capable of visualising things through other means, though i agree, sight speeds the learning process of everything to an extent. its whether its worth it or not that counts.
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Postby kissnatcher1 » 15 Jul 2007 22:56

If it was me i would go into town and see if you could find a flat or other place thats being tore down or renovated and ASK if you could have old locks then you can tear them down and may have many of them to play with.I got alot of my from a company that was going out of buisness they said sure you take them out{ but dont destroy the property }as they may let you do it again at another place they have...RULE you can never have to many practice lock...hope this helps
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Postby simon_G » 16 Jul 2007 9:51

trust me on this, i would LOVE to do that, but my travel range is limeted and there arent any places being torn down within it atm :( though my freind usually knows where there are some.. ill ask him when hes better.

- Simon
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go to the dump

Postby raimundo » 20 Jul 2007 7:28

go to the town dump, doors are thrown out with locks on them, people often throw out locks that they have lost the keys to, because they do not know that keys can be replaced, definately look at what people are throwing out around any remodelling site.
Wake up and smell the Kafka!!!
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Postby simon_G » 20 Jul 2007 7:31

heh.. trust me on this when i say that was the first thing i thought of. however there arent any dumps i can get too, and they dont let you pick up stuff unless your on friendly terms with the guys who work there.

thats where my mate comes in... they let him take whatever he wants :) he always seems to know where theres a skip with useful stuff in, or the dump, or anything like that.

- Simon
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Postby simon_G » 20 Jul 2007 9:56

I just remember something i forgot to mention..

/curses self for absent mindedness

the picks im using are from a standerd 8 piece southord set.. and the locks im trying to pick are euro cylinders...

ive also heard that padlocks are more difficult to 'feel' than dead bolts, so that might be a part of the problem as well.

im hoping to make another trip to the store either tommorow or the day after.

- Simon
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Postby simon_G » 31 Jul 2007 21:00

just thought id get back to you, i now know -exact;y- what the problem is, and it makes me want to kick myself for my stupidity :(

the tension wrench im using is slightely thicker than would be advisable for the size of the keyway, so when i have that in and the pick, i have so little room to move it in, all i can do is luck out..

if i were to buy a slim-line set, would the tension wrench be less wide?

thanks,
- Simon
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Postby Jaakko » 1 Aug 2007 0:59

I don't know about their width in the set, I'd suggest that you search those street sweeper bristles or windshield wiper stiffners. From those you can very easily make your own tensioners and in any size you want. I suggest to try to make a serrated tensioner also :)
Image
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Postby cyclops1101 » 1 Aug 2007 22:37

There are cut-away locks for high security locks


Is there a recommended site to purchase these items. I have been trying to practice with Spool, Mushroom etc but I am never sure if they are false set - I believe a temporary visual aid would increase my chances of getting the real feel/set. Would this be true?
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help

Postby kissnatcher1 » 2 Aug 2007 5:01

I would say yes it may help.But if you do practice with a clear/visual aid understand you wont be able to see them in a real lock!I know i will get corrected on that but if you get the basics then use what you learned to visualize the internal workings then the aid may be the way to go but dont depend on being able to see the pins set once you get the feel that and the sound/small vibrations not sight. :)
If it isnt broke take it apart and see if you could fix it if it was.
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Re: help

Postby cyclops1101 » 2 Aug 2007 10:48

kissnatcher1 wrote:I would say yes it may help.But if you do practice with a clear/visual aid understand you wont be able to see them in a real lock!I know i will get corrected on that but if you get the basics then use what you learned to visualize the internal workings then the aid may be the way to go but dont depend on being able to see the pins set once you get the feel that and the sound/small vibrations not sight. :)


I understand. It is the feel and sound that I want to concentrate on when SPP a high security lock (Security pins). I do have security locks that I could repin myself but I am a complete with power tools! and untill I know what the pins feel like when properly set im afraid i will never bypass such locks. Therefore, Can anyone point me to a trusted, reliable and safe website for purchasing a high security pin tumbler, repinnable cut-away practice lock? If such things exist and are relativly cheap?
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