product called pickbuster

[pickbuster]

"This guy Ron Heywood - New-Media Consultant from xxxxxxxxxx, Bolton, LANCASHIRE, xxxxxxxx works for UAP as a marketing consultant / contractor and UAP in turn buy the product from Almore."

I have been asked to amend my post to remove the words Exclusive Distribution Rights. I am happy to do this but I can find no edit function.

Therefore I would like to point out my statement above is withdrawn and I will henceforth make no assertion towards any rights to Pickbuster.

I hope this clears the air, and that no ill will between myself any any members of the forum, or business entities comes as a result of this. I apollogise unreservedly for any upset or inconvenience caused.

Ron

[pickbuster]

In view of lockey1963's comment I should also retract my statement that the product is approved by the ICL. I was citing their comments on their news page:

Summer 2007
We have added the anti-bumping Pickbuster spray to our approved products. There will be a demonstration of Pickbuster at the ICL Summer event, or you can find out more about Pickbuster on the website of the developers, Almore Ltd.

[url]
http://theinstituteofcertifiedlocksmith ... dforum.htm[/url]

If this information is incorrect the ICL may wish to remove it.

Regards
Ron

[Wallaby]

As a result of the desperate marketing effort, as well as growing concerns over this product and the scaremongering, this support will be removed from the site asap.

The ICL supports product that helps and hence the initial support. Now it has come down them causing a public panic through adverts such as:

www.pickbuster.co.uk

and I now learn that they have the QVC shopping channel selling it.

We were assured that no public panic would be caused through marketing this product and that has now clearly not been the case.

[lockey1963]

ICL did and at present still do support the product as a possible cost effective solution to lock bumping, subject to the results from the above mentioned testing being carried out, if the product comes through the current tests positively then ICL will have no problem in approving PB and offering a full endorsement to such.

The product was added to the approved list im told subject to testing, but will be removed until tests results are fully published.

ICL are not condemning the product , but being carefull in protecting the membership and consumer should PB fail current tests, if all goes well endorsement will be given and the consumer can rest assured that the product has undergone rigorous testing.

current tests include effect on anti picks , affects on being flushed out following claims on other sites of it being so easily and quickly flushed out with products every home has, and 2 locks have been fitted in a coastal location to monitor effects with the elements, results will be published when complete, hopefully to coincide with the answers requested from the insurers.

lets hope all is positive and PB realy is the solution we would all like it to be.

wallaby is correct , scaremongering will cause panic that police have requested not to happen, and this advert if screened would be in my opinion irresponsible at present to say the least and would alienate those it hopes to attract.

[UAPLTD]

I am David Jennings, the Managing Director of UAP Limited. Let me start my reply to this thread by apologisiing unreservedly for any offence caused by any posting by UAP. This was not our intention. Your forum, similar forums and especially the ICL are well respected by UAP and myself personally.

I am writing to this forum to hopefully quell the idea that UAP are selling fear. We are not. We are offering a solution to a serious threat to home security.

As a company we import around 30,000 cylinders a month in to the UK market and we supply many own label cylinders to well known distributors. We would like to view our product as being a high quality, good value product which has surpassed EN1303:2005.

As a company we are members of LAPFAG, the Local Authority PVCu Advisory Group, and this is organisation we are proud to be associated with.

In 2006 the issue of cylinder snapping was introduced in to the UK market but the problem was largely ignored in the early period and as a result a lot of homes were burgled this way. Due to this several companies developed Anti Snap Cylinders or Anti Snap devices which are now standard specifications for Local Authority contracts but not standard in domestic and commercial installations.

In Mid 2006 we were approached by several Local Authorities who were worried about a new threat known to them called Bumping. At that time we did some research and felt that the problem was not significant. In April 2007, I was advised about a Bumping Video which was being circulated around all Authorities by a company trying to sell an Anti Bump Cylinder. That Video gave a graphic account of the threat and how to Bump a lock. Chief people in major Authorities had begun to be extremely worried about the security of their door systems. However, I like many, made the mistake at that time of discounting the threat.

In mid May 2007 I was approached by several leading door companies asking about the problem and telling me that the information from the Councils had started to filter out in to the domestic market. I was asked to seek an urgent solution to the problem of what was required to retro-upgrade existing cylinders. The concern quite rightly was not the new installations which could be resolved by various means but the existing installations. A few years ago the Government had set in motion the 'Decent Homes standard" which required the upgrading of millions of properties throughout the UK with a target date of 2010 as the latest time frame. Most homes have been upgraded already.

Authorities now faced the prospect of millions of homes being 'at risk from bumping' and the potential cost for upgrading these is significant.

Our research for a solution led us to Almore, and Pickbuster.

Running alongside this research, UAP have been approached by a lot of building companies who have had properties burgled with no sign of forced entry. Even yesterday our Irish Agent advised of a whole estate in Eire with a massive problem.

I decided that the best course of action was to market Pickbuster as a simple upgrade solution to home security using the UK installer network who are well versed in installations and have a good basic knowledge of multi point locks and cylinders. I fully accept that these installers do not have this forum's level of expertise.

I felt that the mechanical packaging of Pickbuster should be improved to make it easier and to minimise wastage. Hence we devloped a pump head. I also believed that offering to the market a '5 lock House pack' made sense.

We decided that it was important to advise the consumers about the potential problem of Lock Bumping in an informative way. There is always a fine-line between selling fear and informing people sensitively. I believe we have achieved a good balance of getting the point across without selling solely on fear.

If we have not achieved the correct balance then we would be more than happy to change our approach and would seek guidance from you. Nothing as regards to our marketing campaign is set in stone at all, and our web site went up 4 days ago and is not fully developed.

What we wanted to achieve was an informative site where consumers can get information about this subject but without seeing the horror images you will get if you simply type 'Bump key' in to a search engine. Our video explains the problem without showing how to Bump a lock and then we offer a good retro-fit solution, namely Pickbuster.

UAP are not a souless company. We are a caring company. In 2005 we intervened locally to stop 3 large Reservoirs from being developed and a few months ago we bought those lodges to protect them for ever. In 2006 we agreed to support a small charity based in Lytham to build 5 local community schools in Nepal. The first one was opened in May by Sean Wilson (Martin Platt) and was dedicated to my brother. The 2nd school opens later this month with a football tournament featuring a few football stars and Sean Wilson. The other 3 schools open over the next 10 months. Visit the DCWC-Nepal web site for more details.

In June we held and funded a charity ball in aid of a major TB campaign in Nepal and raised over £15,000 for the charity.

4 weeks ago UAP agreed to fund the re-foresation of 56,000 trees in Thailand as a part of our Carbon Free status. This is a massive tree planting programme and will allow the re-introduction of baboons and other species back in to the forest. This project is run by PATT Foundation. Again click on the plant-a-tree-today.org web site for details.

I outline this, not to show how good we are as a company, but to confirm that we have a real social conscience as a business and everything we do we do with sensitivity.

In closing, I apologise for the length of this posting, but I wanted to apologise for any misconceptions about UAP and our marketing campaigns. I also want to confirm that I will take on board any comments and concerns anyone has about any of our marketing campaigns.

Thank you for reading this posting and thank you for giving the opportunity to reply.

David Jennings

[Shrub]

We didnt really need to have your life story to be honest but thankyou for joining and making a post,
Its a long post but hardly addresses any of the issues made except to condone your use of advertiseing, the questions on the product still remain,

I understand that there are being tests done on this by the ICL and thats acceptable to me but i wouldnt be making such a noise about a product that could have implications to the homeowner that they do not realise until such tests are complete and an official reccomendation is made,

I have removed personal details form two posts but as a retraction has been made on the other points i wont amend the original post made by pickbuster,

[globallockytoo]

Why couldnt you have offered your client a bump and pick proof product like Protec or Bilock?

Instantly calming their bumping fears, covert entry methods, superior key control etc etc etc.

Sure it might be nice to invest big $$$ in research and development and marketing of an unproven product in the hope that it becomes the "miracle" cure...but why the need to do this when there are already products available that meet or exceed expectations.

Double posting - understandable. Triple posting - with a six hour time differential - cheeky!

[Shrub]

Yes, i removed 3 posts that were made with hours appart, we all double, triple and sometimes quadruple post but its all within a 10 min time period, the gap between the ones i removed was hours,

Uwsdwf pointed this out but i unfortunatley removed his post with the repeat ones,

There is a lot to be said for anti bump mechs like bi-lock and abloy but this product would be pennies to acieve the same status if it was to do and be as it says on the tin, unfortunatley it doesnt appear to do that or at least many issues have been ignored in order to make some fast money riding on the back of the hysteria out there on bumping,

Bi-lock especially but also Abloy as far as door locks go are rare here due to lack of dealers,

[globallockytoo]

Perhaps Shrub, this creates an excellent opportunity for an enterprising entrepeneur to purchase a Bilock dealership and clean up?

[lockey1963]

David

Thank you for mentioning that your company is enviroment friendly and green , you are commended on this, however you claim to not be selling on the back of created fear.
Reading your website it states in the faq section that in some areas bumping is responsible for 50% of burglaries, yet no official report has yet been produced nor released to substantiate such a claim.
The video suggests bumping is a silent 1 second opening giving the illusion of using a key, also exagerated.
This will create panic and fear , thus create and sell, good marketing i guess.

You are marketing the product as a proven product that will enhance security , when in fact it has been claimed by respected locksmiths and MLA members that it can actively reduce security of a cylinder, by rendering anti picks useless! in testing this has been proven to be a valid concern, though not wanting to or ready to condemn the product , ICL are testing a reduced application to see if a balance of bump resistence and effective anti pick measures can be achieved.
If not , then i cannot see any insurer indemnifying a claim if the lock has been treated, thus weakning the locks security.

It has been claimed on other forums that the product is flushed out easily and instantly by certain cleaners easily available, again being tested.

Have UAP run these tests themself ? or had an independent expert run such tests for them ? as if so alot of time can be saved if you could publish such tests.

We know ERA have tested it in a controlled enviroment as to effect on normal cylinder operation, we know that its been tested for bump resistence. but has anyone tested the claimed weaknesses ? effects of the elements on the cylinder ? and the effect of cleaning agents ? if so this would be very usefull to know to compare with our own tests.
also what has the insurers reaction been to PB application ?

Im sure you have had these tests done, as im sure no one would market a product before testing that insurers will recognise it, that it doesnt weaken a cylinder in another way , and it cannot easily and quickly be defeated.

Look forward to comparing your test results with our own once complete, and hope they prove PB to be the cost effective solution we all hope it will be.

[lockey1963]

coddringtons supply bilock in the uk, they are an excellent cylinder indeed, i now stock some of these.
The problem in selling the bilock to the domestic market for me has not been price, but the keys , they are so big and awkward , customers just dont want the keys, prefering multlock i offer instead purely on the key size and shape.

[illusion]

50% of burglaries, yet no official report has yet been produced nor released to substantiate such a claim.

He said some areas - Perhaps they have done their own report? Since there's no official report (And neither is there likely to be) you can't really discredit the claim. The wording is very vague, and I don't really think it's technically illegal. I'm not a lawyer so I don't pretend to be sure of this however...

I've pumped Euro cylinders in the time scale that the burglar in the video did - I'd say it is a valid concern... It certainly won't always be that fast in real life, but it *could* be - hence why I still don't think theres anything illegal in this regard.

Is the issue here that people are being mislead, or that there is a case that can be presented in court?

I do however think the product is flawed for the reasons Shrub mentioned, and that a better lock mechanism is probably a better solution.

If I had the cash, it'd probably be a good idea to get a Bilock franchise where I live - I'm sure it'd be accepted warmyl and would be able to address bumping and picking concerns.

[UAPLTD]

Sorry about the triple posting. Internet explorer said it crashed 3 times. I thought it had been blocked due to the length. Sorry.

As for testing. We spend a lot of money on testing. Pickbuster applied cylinders have been independently tested for proof of their effectiveness and then they were tested to see if they could be flushed out with WD40 readily.

We have done our own in-house tests by subjecting cylinders to salt spray conditions at 1000 hours. This test is designed to replicate salt air and particulants.

We currently have a dozen Pickbuster cylinders en-route to us from our factory to be subjected to EN1303:2005.

[UAPLTD]

Just to add clarity, the Bump tests and WD40 tests were very succesful. These tests were carried out by a vry highly qualified independent expert. The tests showed that a series of cylinders could be readily bumped pre-application and could not be bumped after application. As for the WD40 test it took a full 400ml can and over 15 minutes to flush out enough Pickbuster to bump the lock.

The normal test requirement for EN1303/Secured by Design is a 5 minute attack, as it is unlikely that the average burglar would attack a cylinder for longer than this.

As for our marketing, we are mainly looking at existing cylinders that are in the market that require a retro-upgrade. If there is a better product for retro-upgrade than Pickbuster then I would love details.

As for 'low cost cylinders'. It maybe that we view the cost of cylinders differently due to the markets that we serve. None of our cylinders cost over £3.50, and that's for the EN1303:2004 Anti Snap...

By the way, I do not want to interrupt your forum, and will withdraw once I have answered all your questions, or if you wish me to resign.

[Shrub]

By the way, I do not want to interrupt your forum, and will withdraw once I have answered all your questions, or if you wish me to resign.

Well if you take a look above you will see many questions that you seem to be dodging or are you full of bollocks and merely trying to blind us with false or useless facts? if you want to answer our questions work through this thread and address them or hold your hands up and agree that things are not ok with your product and advertiseing ethics,

Im starting to get tired of this sales patter now as that is all i think it is, it seems like your coming here making comment after not actually reading what has been put to you, all your coments remain unbacked up and all sound like somthing from a bad sales leaflet,

I assume you realise there are a lot of 'hidden eyes' on this site and what you say here could determine how your product will survive in the real world, blagging us off is not only gogin to fail but its also gogin to severly turn around and bite your arse,

Illusion, with respect its the fact this product is not what it claims to be thats the issue here not whether its a good idea or one that is needed, its this particular product that has issues, if things are as they are advertised then its a great product but its already being proven wrong and they dont seem to want to reply to that,


Yes a bilock dealership would go down well near here as well i assume but if it doesnt im a lot of money down the road wih a lot of stock i cant get rid of, i didnt realise they were already available in the uk thanks lockey, i also dont like the big keys and just to whet your appetite the lock i got from Zeke was picked within an hour of me taking it out the packageing, i did not find it as challenging as i assumed it would be, full guide coming soon but this is for a differant thread in a differant section, lets keep this discussion to the pickbuster product,


One final note of information to you uapltd, wd-40 is not a household cleaner so when asked about that side of things maybe next time address the actual question not fit the question around what you claim to have tested,

Lockey maybe just come out and state the cleaners as the more i hear from this about this the more i want it off the shelves and i dont think uap is gogin to give a decent answer to any of our questions,