product called pickbuster

[UAPLTD]

globallockytoo.........Thanks for your comments. Horsefeathers is quite correct, we re-built a cylinder just to see if a pre-filled cylinder would perform better or worse than a retro-filled cylinder. The result was pretty similar. Because of this we have got pre-filled samples on their way from the maunufacturers and these will then be tested to EN1303:2005.

In closing, I have found your forum to be very thought provoking and interesting. Thanks for all your postings. I will check back to see if there is the odd question, and am always on hand via our web sites etc to answer any other comments. Thanks

[UAPLTD]

Jaakko - re: Acetone, Petrol, Cellulose Thinners. Almore have tested each of these in their own factory some time ago. None of the chemicals changed the chemical composition of Pickbuster.

I have asked that Almore re-do these tests either using the Cardiff Univeristy Department of Chemistry, or they do them in-house and video tape the testing which we will upload on to Youtube and link to our site.

Hope this answers your query.

[Jaakko]

None of the chemicals changed the chemical composition of Pickbuster.

No, I specifically asked if those would solve Pickbuster, not alter/change it.

If we would know the chemical that is the base material for Pickbuster, then we could pinpoint you a solvent probably.

[UAPLTD]

Having talked to the Almore today the view is that we should test to see if a chemical can attack Pickbuster and change its characteristics.

If the answer is no, then the only way that chemcial could get rid of Pickbuster is via flushing, as per the WD40 test which we know is difficult and time consuming, and over our own 5 minute thresh-hold..

If a chemical can change Pickbuster in any way then in these circumstances it may be possible to get rid of Pickbuster by dissolving it in the lock. In that case we would then test that chemical in a lock situation.

I hope you agree with this suggestion.

[Shrub]

Personally i think the question is that can a substance be put into a treated lock and render pickbuster useless,

If thats flushing it out or altering its composition is neither here nor there,

If somthing like for example a drain cleaner can be sprayed in a lock and then allow it to be bumped afterwards then its of no consequence to us how it did it but rather the fac that it did,

Im also concerned about the claims that it renders anti picking pins useless and allows the locks to be manually picked a whole lot easier than if the substance wasnt in there,

Maybe its a spray to help lockies on the job pick locks

[horsefeathers]

Maybe its a spray to help lockies on the job pick locks

Brilliant!!! let me have some as I am at best average at picking. A quick squirt and I become a lockpicking God!

I presume the 'slowing' action of the product on the pins also renders electric picks guns and manual gun useless!

regards

[lockey1963]

A quick test that anyone can do, we tried it yesterday.

we took 3 x mila 5 pin euro profile cylinders and 3 x Yale 1109 5 pin rim cylinders, each bumped within 1 to 3 taps.

we treated each and left for 5 hours.

As is already known , pickbuster worked 100% , none of the cylinders would now bump open.

we then tried to clear pickbuster and selected Halfords brake cleaner and gave the cylinder a 2 second burst of brake cleaner, and instantly attempted to bump the cylinders, the Euro cylinders now bumped open again in 1 to 3 taps.
We then left the cylinders for 10 minutes, and again tried to bump them and failed, as PB had reinstated itself.
The yale cylinders would still not bump open!


It seems from this simple test that halfords brake cleaner if sprayed into the euro lock and instantly attempt the opening, then the Euro lock still bumps as before, so it does render pickbuster ineffective for a short period of time, however if a time lapses PB will reinstate itself, but was ineffective for long enough to effect an entry.

It seems due to the pins being at the bottom of a euro cylinder this allows brake cleaner to at least for a short time render PB innefective, though in a rim cylinder it seems almost impossible to flush a cylinder sufficiently to remove pb from the cylinder with pins above the keyway.

My own conclusion from this is if id had PB applied to a rim id feel quite safe, but if applied to a euro profile cylinder, id be concerned as still at risk.

The risk however is less than it was in a cylinder that had not been treated, so still cannot rule out PB as a budget product to aid bump resistence.
Despite some flaws and weakness , it does prevent bumping , and i doubt that those using bump keys for wrong doing have yet armed themselves with cleaning agents, so will i think still provide an increased level of security to a consumer against lock bumping.

we still await conclusive test results on the rendering of anti picks as inneffective, but at present it seems if over applied this is very much the effect, if under applied then not bump resistent, but it does seem possible to treat a cylinder and leave anti picks working fine, but its a fine line between just enough and too much and tests still being carried out on this.

But for me initially , i do feel it is a little early to be hailing PB as a hard and fast all singing all dancing solution, but i do feel that with full testing it may be possible to overcome many of the current weaknesses found, and once overcome PB becomes a far more marketable product.
You will never make it bump proof, and if invented by man ive no doubt it will be beaten by man, but the important fact will remain, it does offer bump resistence.

If it turns out that insurers will still pay out on a claim following PB treatment , and the UAP tests do indeed show that dirt and adverse cylinder effects are minimal, then i see no reason why it will not become a usefull bump resistence product, but feel alot more tests and answers are required before it is actively marketed as such.

The UAP Guarantee is admirable, but will you happily pay out on a euro that has been flushed with brake fluid, even though the PB did reinstate itself after the fact ?


It is claimed on the UK bump key site that they flushed out PB with hot water and fairy liquid, unproven to date, and even if so i cannot see how on the door.

[Schuyler]

Hi UA -

Thanks for the information on your salt tests.

Also - thanks for answering up to this barrage of questions, it's not often we get the ear of a manufacturer of any sort. I have to say, from my perspective it sounds like you absolutely stand behind the product, but at the same time are determined to make sure you're standing behind the right product.

I'm now curious about what Shrub just mentioned in terms of making conventional picking easier.

[UAPLTD]

Thanks for your posts. Due to your questions, Almore have now committed to have the following research undertaken.

1/ To test a range of materials reaction against time, in Petri dishes to show reaction or resistance

2/ To test reactive/ reagent materials for flushing effectiveness (very different property to above) in a simulated pin/ spring chamber, to test with a realistic product/ aggressor exposure area.

Techniques to be set by Thursday of this week, results to be released under the title of the University of Glamorgan Construction products department

[UAPLTD]

Lockey 1963 - I am impressed with your test, and the results. The new tests will include a test immediately after insertion of a foreign solution and after say 5 minutes.

It must be remembered that our view of Lockpicking by a common burglar is to achieve a result in under 5 minutes which is the standard for say anti drilling, or cylinder attack in EN1303:2005.

I am certain, given this forums experience that you guys can find a way to bump a Pickbuster protected lock, but our criteria is within 5 minutes and realistically using tools and resources available to the average burglar on a doorstep.

My goal is to have the best products available for any situation, and I am happy to test and re-test as an on-going process as new information and ideas surface.

[UAPLTD]

Schuyler. Thanks for the question.

Pickbuster has been tested and proven to resist electro picking and this is a part of a standard presentation Almore do to the Police Federation and other authorities.

Pickbuster does not resist manual picking, but it is unclear whether it does affect Anti pick pins. My understanding from Almore is that Anti-pick cylinders with Pickbuster are unlikely to be picked manually under our 5 minute guide unless done by a highly competant picker, which the average burglar certainly is not.

[ukockpicker]

I have tried a form of pickbuster, it actually helped bumping and the locks opened easier.

[UAPLTD]

ukockpicker: Thanks for the post. However I think it has to be accepted from the previous posts and reports that Pickbuster does work and does resist bumping.

If you want some free samples of Pickbuster to test then I would be happy to send one to you. Just send me your details in a private message and it will be done.

[Schuyler]

I wouldn't sweat ockpicker. Random statement without anything to back it up and referring to a "form of pickbuster" sounds like he isn't even talking about your product.

Thanks for the follow-up to the question. I'm going to be dropping you a pm.

[globallockytoo]

Something else I'm curious about....has the product been tested in masterkeyed cylinders?

Masterkeying adds a lower level of security to most conventional pin tumbler systems already. Would the application of PB, increase the security aspect of masterkeying, reduce security, inhibit key changes etc etc?