To answer zeke79

[Karl J]

I see I've stirred some people up. To sum up my original point I have written a personal anology that might better describe my whole view on this>>>>I work in the autobody industry and I get people coming up to me that have noticed a dent, a scratch, or their paint looks dull etc. and when they ask how do I do this myself..........I answer politely and honestly that if you dont have the skills and/or the tools to do the job you will make it worse. But if they are persistent and/or cannot afford the work to be done professionally I do give the best helpful hints I can because if I don't then the person will go to the next autobody shop and either get a crap job done for the price they can afford or take some BS advice from the guys working there just to get rid of the guy.
So in closing, although LP101 does have an "advanced" area I still think that all questions that are not illegal should be answered by qualified people. I mean, would you rather that all new members go elsewhere to get there questions answered (even if the questions are way over their head)? Some responsibility should be taken here and advice should be given.
I have not read all the posts so I apologize if I did not answer a direct question to me but I do have a question to the admins/supporters of LP101 (it's ironic that "101" refers to an introductory to learning something and yet the "101" of safes or security locks cannot be discussed unless in the advanced section) My question is, If a person who has been picking locks for years (and is a professional lockpicker by anyones standards) joins this site and posts only a few times, would they be granted access to the advanced section??
Thanx again, I won $400 playning baccarat so I am

[simon_G]

this forum exists for the sport of lockpicking.

people dont pull dents or fix paint for 'fun' usually.

and from the perspective of someone who is into the sport, getting into the advanced section is a milestone. it marks another increase in skill, another achievement that the moderators think your good enough to benifit from the knowledge.

give acess to the advanced forum publicly and not only is the information useless to anyone interested in the sport before theyd be given advanced acess anyways, and so they slide into it without thinking, and it takes that sense of acheivement away.

and if a person who has been picking locks for years posts a couple times, they will STILL not be given acess.

and if they are a proffesional lockpicker, what are the chances they couldent find that information elsewhere?

[Karl J]

Simon,

from reading your response I can clearly see that you haven't read my first few posts which would have answered the "points" you made. Also, I think you didn't understand that I was comparing the professional-to-newbie advice etiquette. Furthermore my original statement was based on the fact that this advanced information is already out there (you don't need to be a professional lockpicker to get it)
Anyway...........any moderator reading this, please lock this thread. I am tired of defending my hand.......we agree to disagree....no prob.
Goodnight.

[Schuyler]

No.

[UWSDWF]

seems like i missed some fun.... maybe if i have the time and this thread is still around i'll do the UW thing to it

[digital_blue]

If a person who has been picking locks for years (and is a professional lockpicker by anyones standards) joins this site and posts only a few times, would they be granted access to the advanced section??

I will be happy to answer this question for you. The answer is a simple "No". There are many reasons why we have the standards we do for granting access to the advanced forums. I can not tell you how many times since I became an admin have I received a PM from a new members who tells me their life story and then asks for advanced access. Granted, I can understand the reasoning. However, my answer is still consistently "I'm sorry, but no."

Firstly, the minimum time/minimum post count affords our mod team the opportunity to review what a person has said. We get a bit of a picture of the person, and are therefor better equipped to determine if we ought to grant them access.

Secondly, another thing we are looking for is "active participation". Many, many of our advanced members don't have years of experience or knowledge under their belt. That doesn't matter to me. As a matter of fact, this very topic was *just* discussed in the mod section whilst reviewing one of the applicants. This applicant will, in all likelihood (based on what we see in the post history), probably find much of the material over his head. However, that's not really all that important. The member has shown a keen interest and active participation, and there is a demonstration of increased knowledge and understanding in his post history. In short, he's learning. He's new to this (relatively), he's excited about it, he's taking an active roll in learning, and he's actively participating in the general forums. For this reason, I'm quite certain he will be admitted at the end of this month. We have said no to members who, despite meeting the minimum requirements, have demonstrated that they just absolutely haven't reached a point where the advanced material would be relevant at all. But this is a far less common occurrence.

A third thing we consider is "attitude" on the site. Attitude toward others. Attitude toward the community, and the rules in place. Some people seem to actively seek out conflict. I'm not interested in granting them the privilege of our advanced forums. This is yet another reason why the "professional lockpicker" isn't granted immediate access to the advanced forums. If someone wishes to treat other people badly simply because this is "the internet" and they feel anonymous, I'm not interested in them either. In fact, rarely does a month go by (it seems) where someone isn't denied their application to the advanced forums because of conduct on the public forums. It's a sad fact, but some people are just asshats. (I say that in the most loving way possible ).

So, as you can see, there are plenty of factors at play here. If our only criteria for advanced access was that the member already knew everything they were apt to find in there, how silly would that be? In actual fact, we *want* to grant access to the advanced forums. I'd like to see the list of applicants get even longer. It shows me that people are enjoying this community in even greater numbers. However, we still choose to maintain the standards that we do, and I think it is for good reason.

Let's not beat around the bush. If someone is interested in quick access to any kind of information they desire, there are other places to go. I know that. I think most people here know that. There are other sites that have no dilemma whatsoever with whoring out every piece of illicit material they can find. We at LP101 *choose* to take the higher road. For the most part, I believe that the community at large supports that decision. If they didn't, they'd vote with their mice.

I can tell you it's not easy to have, as your job, the responsibility of making judgments about people with little to go on. Sometimes we make an incorrect decision. Sometimes we, as a mod team, are divided on a decision. That's even tougher. I've seen plenty of times when a decision went opposite to what I felt was best, and I'm sure other mods have had the same experiences about decisions that did go the way I wanted. We're all human. We all work here to try and make this community the best it can be. That's all we can do.

I accepted a long time ago that you can't please everyone - and when you try, you mess things up terribly. We do what we can, and those who don't agree with how we do it go somewhere else. We have a thriving community. We have a good mix of longstanding veteran members and excited, wet-behind-the-ears newbies. Every day we have dozens of new members join (and that's not even counting spammers). The majority of those members never actually post here, and that's fine by me too. I've seen many instances where members who signed up months previously finally start to post and then become active participants here. At the end of the day, we welcome anyone who is interested in the hobby, and willing to accept the few rules and standards we have in place here.

Cheers,

db

[Jaakko]

Furthermore my original statement was based on the fact that this advanced information is already out there (you don't need to be a professional lockpicker to get it)

There is no such fact. THe LP101 advanced area holds information not available anywhere else, and I know this as I've contributed that sort of info there

If you are referring to places like EZP or other "free speech" forums, then I can only say that the "advanced information" they have is scattered and almost always not coherent and readable and in most cases it is incorrect or told with the kind of "I think that" -attitude.

[zeke79]

I see I've stirred some people up. To sum up my original point I have written a personal anology that might better describe my whole view on this>>>>I work in the autobody industry and I get people coming up to me that have noticed a dent, a scratch, or their paint looks dull etc. and when they ask how do I do this myself..........I answer politely and honestly that if you dont have the skills and/or the tools to do the job you will make it worse. But if they are persistent and/or cannot afford the work to be done professionally I do give the best helpful hints I can because if I don't then the person will go to the next autobody shop and either get a crap job done for the price they can afford or take some BS advice from the guys working there just to get rid of the guy.
So in closing, although LP101 does have an "advanced" area I still think that all questions that are not illegal should be answered by qualified people. I mean, would you rather that all new members go elsewhere to get there questions answered (even if the questions are way over their head)? Some responsibility should be taken here and advice should be given.
I have not read all the posts so I apologize if I did not answer a direct question to me but I do have a question to the admins/supporters of LP101 (it's ironic that "101" refers to an introductory to learning something and yet the "101" of safes or security locks cannot be discussed unless in the advanced section) My question is, If a person who has been picking locks for years (and is a professional lockpicker by anyones standards) joins this site and posts only a few times, would they be granted access to the advanced section??
Thanx again, I won $400 playning baccarat so I am

You have not stirred anyone up in my opinion and if you did then that's fine because I left this thread open to discuss the matter with you publicly.

As stated by myself the rules are generally not something that even the admins can change. I am sorry if they do not suit you or how you think the site should run but it is something that we (the admin/moderator staff) must deal with. I do understand your points however.

As for your question of professional lockpicker being allowed access without the required criteria, no we do not do that. It would not be right for others on the site to have to meet the requirements while others can just slip in under the radar simply because of their "status". I know that everyone thinks that all of the information in the advanced forums can be found elsewhere but this is false. I can think of atleast two posts I have made in the advanced forums that is NOT available anywhere else that I have seen yet. That doesnt mean that it will never be out there elsewhere, but for now it is not.

The only way I can think of to backup the rules as they are would be let's say you have a safe in your home that you rely on to store things such as your social security cards, deed to your home, car titles, and other valuables such as I do. Would you feel somehow cheated IF someone were to break into your home and manipulate your safe and steal the contents inside and you later come to find out that the person who done it learned how to do it from these forums? Now this is not to say that the info is not out there somewhere else, but for the sake of this question let's pretend that it is not out there anywhere else. I personally would feel a bit of anger at this site for telling someone how to steal what I have worked all of my life so far for.

We are directly tied (lockpicking101) with Locksport international. We use these rules to uphold alot of the ideals of LI. Part of the reasoning of our rules is to keep Locksport International an ethical organization as in time, as LI grows more and more, ethics will come under the microscope pretty quickly.

I hope this atleast answers some of your questions. It may not be exactly what you want to hear but I hope it explains some of the whys behind this site. We welcome you with open arms and you are more than welcome to visit this site and any other site out there as an active member. All we ask here is that you accept the rules. Before you know it, you will have met the time and post requirements to become an advanced member and you can then enjoy what is posted there.

I truly hope you stick around and enjoy this site as there really is alot of great members and great information. Hopefully when this all works out you will stick around long enough to enjoy what this site has to offer.

-Zeke79

[globallockytoo]

Karl J,

Having only recently been allowed access to the advanced forums and reading (lots) of stuff...I completely understand the efforts taken to restrict the section to suitable entrants.

Having previously been a vocal antagonist of the system and realising the error in my ways, irrespective of believing whether or not I personally am advanced or not, I completely understand their motivations.

Whilst it might not be the absolute best scenario for all, one has to conclude that the admin/moderators are well within their rights and responsibilities to determine (democratically) who and who does not has access.

I consider myself a professional (as you deem), with in excess of 25 years professionally in the trade. At first i was suspiscious of whom were creating these "rules". But after careful consideration of the facts, I conclude that they appear to be acting with no malice toward anyone.

I suggest supporting their values and showing through your own professional conduct and contribution, that you accept and endear similar values and eventually expect admittance after application.

How do you determine who is and is not allowed knowledge of similar topics to you in your own professional environment?

I hold no malice toward anyone for the delay in granting me access to the section. I only hope to read, participate and contribute to the greater understanding and explanation of the trade, for the betterment of the industry at large. i suggest you do the same.

[Raccoon]

I haven't been replying to these threads, but I've read every post of Karl's.

In a nutshell, we have a new member on an angsty quest to turn this forum into a 2600 hacker website. "Information wants to be free-- so start sharing guys!"

The fact of the matter is, freedom of speech includes the freedom of silence. We are not a teen hacker club, nor do we wish to educate teens whose prefrontal cortex has not fully developed the subtle ability to determine right from wrong and appreciate that consequences for breaking the law apply to them.

Yes, the information is out there, but it is not available to you, otherwise you wouldn't be pestering us for it.