I learned an important rekeying lesson today

[raimundo]

If pull out step key means what I think it does, at least half the time you don't even need a key, just a tensor.

[kg4boj]

No, it is pinned.... the bitting is (kwikset) 33344 and its a "gate latch" witch is basicly a deadbolt that is springloaded like a knobset, and has a latch instead of a bolt, it will close and latch all by itself and the cylinder is springloaded so that it returns to center automatically.... the issue was that customers were using the key to pull the heavy gate with a closer installed on it shut, after they walked through and they were breaking off keys using them to move the gate ie pulling it open and trying to pull it out at an angle when there walking through. SO
it needed to be pinned, not just a dummy slot, since the key has no peaks, and just ramps down, any attempt to pull the key out in any position will result in the key pulling out even when turned, and the lock will self lock behind you. If that makes any sense.

[globallockytoo]

Are you prepared to change the type of lock on the gate?

In Australia, there are lockwood 538/938 locksets that are a rigid exterior knob only openable with a key and a lever handle inside. I'm sure there is something similar in the USA. Then there would be no need to use the key as a handle.

[Raccoon]

i thought you said the pinning/bitting was schlage..?

[freakparade3]

i thought you said the pinning/bitting was schlage..?

It is. The other posts above are some other conversation.

[kg4boj]

Are you prepared to change the type of lock on the gate?

In Australia, there are lockwood 538/938 locksets that are a rigid exterior knob only openable with a key and a lever handle inside. I'm sure there is something similar in the USA. Then there would be no need to use the key as a handle.

They call that "storeroom function" The issue with that is the gate is barred, if you could grab a lever through the bars, that does no good. I can make hundreds of diffrent pullout key combinations if need be, however this is an insurance requirement, they can't have easy access to the "cabana pool" for children, it is what they call an attractive nussance if it werent gated and fenced in. Only issue I've had is a few people have pulled up onto the sidewalk with golf carts and hit the gate a few times, the latch eventually broke (failed deadly) and I had to retract it and replace it. I would be happy if there were a way to do it with asylum locks... or a way to shield the inner knob/lever from being touched through the bars without what the management would consider an eyesore, but the code enforcer said thats what we needed..... If you want to live a long healthy life.... DO NOT PISS OFF A CODE INSPECTOR.

We had a customer that had a key in knob regular entrance commercial lockset (with lock knob inside) on a small closet, not big enough to fit a person in, fail inspection, because he did not use storeroom function locks.

We do alot of work for these people so its not that big a deal if one lockset is keyed and installed in such a way as to almost never need maintence (aside from those pesky golf cart accidents)

[freakparade3]

The problem with all of these condo buildings in my area is they all have keyed entry knobs on the doors. They do not want to change to anything else because of the money involved with electronic keypad locks. The people who live in these buildings use their keys to pull poen the door and it creates alot of wear. It's no problem with me if they don't want to change the type of lock. I'll be happy to go back and work on them over and over. I have explained the problems with the locks they have, and how to fix the problems. Being called back is not a bad reflection on me, it's the cheap condo associations. I'll be happy to take their money every 6 to 12 months to work on the doors if they don't want to upgrade.

[kg4boj]

They paid me for a solution, and a pullout key was a good one at that, I am not talking about going back every 6-10 months, I am talking 2-3 times a week or more.

[kg4boj]

btw, they werent just causing wear, they were folding keys in half like they were butter, always jammed in there deeper, like somehow magicly it would fall out the other side.

[globallockytoo]

Actually reminds me of a similar situation I faced some years back. It was for a communal swimming pool in a complex (private). Only tennants were allowed to access that area. The gate was a steel tube gate with the tubes about 3 inches apart so getting your hand through was very easy. They were required to have a lever handle on the inside according to the building code.

My solution (that they eventually adopted across all their properties) was to install a perspex shield wide enough to prevent access to the inside handle. It was very inexpensive and easy to install without taking away from the aesthetics.

The locks still required constant servicing...but only tennants and their guests could access the pool area.

[kg4boj]

I should note there is a tall one way turnstyle that only allows people to exit, the gate has a double ended deadbolt, this allows those with big bulky packages to not get stuck in the turnstyle :-p and the pullout key method works really well, Its a pain in the ass to go out there and take it off 3 times a week, its been quite some time since they had any trouble with the lock itself. Eventually the keys will wear smooth, but duplicating them is no big deal, since there are only 3 steps, and no upward peaks, our good lever operated key machine can pump out hundreds very rapidly. For some reason they didn't want or need a lever, they specificly wanted a double sided deadbolt, I assume that the turnstyle satisfies their emergency exit requirements, but since when does/can a pool catch fire? they are most concerned about children drowning, you guys should try it sometime, take the smallest baby bottom pin that you have, and put it pointed end down, and code the lock so that you have a key that only goes down from shoulder to tip, and file the peaks off with a "flat bastard" or mill bastard whatever bastard suits you the best.

You will have a lock that is very tolerant of slop and without the problems from doing things like filing down the tops of cylinders.... (witch can have some uses, but causes some problems down the road) Not good for security, but for"public safety", its pretty good

[globallockytoo]

I should note there is a tall one way turnstyle that only allows people to exit, ...

Does anybody notice that this situation keeps changing? More details emerge the further the thread progresses?


If there is already a turnstile exit that people use for departing, why the need for anything other than a nightlatch type lock on the main door?

Are you saying that the keys are breaking only when the door is opened and people are withdrawing the key from the lock only when the door is opened or closed?

[tommy15]

Iv only come across this problem a few times and i think not very common and im still not convinced its due to the key bieng worn probably other factors. Anyway having said that, as others have suggested, my solution (unless its a restricted keyway) is just to file the top profile of the cylinder getting all the pins down to the shear line. You could also try and fix the key by raising it fraction before duplicating it, or just cut another key by code ... but first option is quickest and easiest.

[kg4boj]

When several keys in a very large system stop working, so many that it would be far easier to rekey the lock, you can add slop but DO NOT UNDER ANY ANY ANY circumstances file down the lock plug. Especially when a whole bunch of people are using it. It WILL cause problems down the road. Granted I did this when I worked at a hardware store and was taught rekeying by a guy who thought a universal pin kit had just the largest of the pins, and a big flat bastard file (not a handheld 6 inch or so, the size that farriers use on horse hooves). You would be surprised at the slop you can get with the smaller universal pointed bottom pins in the top of the pin chamber. It will wear a little bit faster but give you the slop you need without having things like keys pulling back out a little ways before they are in the locked position, and you'll have customers tug and tug and snap the key off with their bare hands or visegrips (nut rounders) etc.

Also if you ever want to masterkey the door, you cannot do so with a flat top cylinder, its a bad idea to even try, even worse if you have those tiny 10-15 thousanth wafers in there.

There is a way to mason key the system to use eatch individual's room key but that can cause problems of its own, just add slop to the lock in a way without permanantly modifing it and cut new keys if the old ones are just plain worn out.

[Raccoon]

Or just explain to the owner, "I'm sorry, but I cannot reliably rekey this lock. It is too worn out, here have a look. I'm not even going to attempt it."