Making an unpickable Lock

[WhiteHat]

i need help pickin my lock that has no combo, can u please help me, my email is <deleted> , please help me!

no e-mail requests in posts - read the rules man. also this is a duplicate post, you posted in this thread:

viewtopic.php?p=23578

read my reply..

WhiteHat.

[zeke79]

thought id add this here instead of adding a new post (oh, thats right marso's gone, I can do it!!!) anyway, Ive read several times in manuals that no lock has holes that are perfectly inline, as it would be to costly to manufacture. But what if someone had the money? I've been thinking about it, and if they are all inline, then wouldn't you NEED a key to open it, because the pins cannot catch on the sheer line if they are all inline. Mind you, it would have to be bloddy perfect, coz even the slightest mis-alignment would make the lock pickable, however, it could be done. Whaddya reckon??

Then one of us would just need to cobble together a pick that lifts all the pins at once, rather than a pick that can lift one at a time. Wouldn't be all that hard, really. Just like a tubular pick, but horizontal.

Wouldnt that be very possible with some time and a sputnik pick?

[zeke79]

The problem with mechanical devices is that there will be flaws in the manufacturing process. What we are talking about now may evolve into more secure ideas. I am sure the major lock manufacturers are competing at this day a government level lock that will only comply to a willing live retina. Just imagine what lock picking will for involve for an ultra high security lock 5 years from now???

[martinger]

Hi,

I think the race for unpickable locks is over for years, and it has been won by the mathematicians. We currently have a bunch of virtually unbreakable cryptographic algorithms, which makes it possible to create electronic locks using a smartcard (a chipcard or even using a transponder) which responds to cryptographic challenges from the lock. Of course, nobody can say for sure how unbreakable these algorithms really are, but there are some (even the old tripple-DES) of which one can be pretty sure that they are safe for years (if not decades or centuries, but how important is this for a door lock?)... I'd consider those - talking about the technology, not some specific implementation which may have flaws - the most secure locks available today.

Some people mentioned biometrics. These systems really are quite nice, but I would consider them much more like normal locks when talking about "picking" security. They rely on some kind of sensor (fingerprint, eye, whatever) which - as every mechanical lock - can be fooled at least in theory. And I have seen people fooling different advanced fingerprint scanners, and why should it be impossible to rebuild a human eye exactly enough to fool an iris scanner? Biometrics are useful for identifying the person requesting access which is something a key does not offer (you can lose your keys much easier than your eye, don't use the grinder without glasses though ), but they are not the most secure system when talking about getting access without the original key. And remember, you leave your fingerprints almost everywhere, do you do this with your key's profile?

And to the "the lock just has to be hard enough not to be the weakest link" part: do you really think burglars use lockpicks? At least here in germany I don't know of a single case where a houses door was picked by a thief, they usually drill it, break it, shim the door or break a window. Even with normal locks, OK, possibly not with the real easy ones but these can be rarely found in real doors today, IMHO, again, at least here in germany. If there are really bad guys picking doors it's those who want to get in and out unnoticed, like govermment agencies placing microphones or other spys And getting in unnoticed raises the bar quite a lot, can't be done that easy by breaking a window...

Speaking about government agencies, I think those also could be the biggest security problem of cryptographic locks... If you believe in conspiracy theories all companies producing such locks have to build in backdoors And the problem is not that I wouldn't trust the government (that's something everybody has to know for himself), but that when such a backdoor exists nobody really can be sure that not also the wrong guys get access to the master-key, ruining the whole "unbreakable" part...

So go to your electronics store, buy some smartcards, implement 3DES or Twofish or something, and build your own unpickable lock. I'd consider this even easier than building a mechanically unpickable cylinder... But of course, this gets off-topic

Martin

[PickPick]

If you go back to the former MIT guide, you can see that the reason you can pick locks lies not in the mechanism itself but in its implementation, the theoretical lock with no tolerances, no restrictions in pin height differences etc. would be virtually impossible to pick. But real life systems are different. Same goes for crypto.

First there's the software side, as the hard part is not finding a secure algorithm (by choosing a well known peer-reviewd open algorithm, not by inventing one yourself) it's the implementation. Most of the time, attacks aren't mounted against the algorithm but against insecure random number generators, insecure key storage and everything else that surrounds it. Maybe funny things happen if you send it a key that is twice as long as a normal key. And in many bigger systems the key/user management is done on some server that has to be secured as well.

Next is hardware. Several electronic locks have problems with radio frequency inteference aka rf noise causing all sorts of funky problems. Some locks can be opened by connecting the right wires, by placing a magnet at the right place, sometimes the case is easily opened and then you can take out ROMs andread them out. Smartcard research taught us that tamperproof hardware... isn't. Sometimes the mechanism that connects the lock to the bolt and thereby prevents or allows opening the lock by turning a knob can be manipulated.

So while it can be argued that these approaches aren't really lockpicking anymore, I'd be careful with stating that electronic locks are more secure.

And for the "thiefs don't pick locks"-part, while I haven't heard anything from the police side, I know of one incident where a guy stole money and cigarettes from a cigarette dispenser after opening with an electric pickgun. As a little side note, it was his fathers pick, as he was a 'locksmith' (he did keycutting, emergency openings, shoe repair, etc.).

[martinger]

the reason you can pick locks lies not in the mechanism itself but in its implementation, the theoretical lock with no tolerances

Yes of course. But I'm sure we both agree, that real-life mechanics with no tolerances is not possible. Real-life cryptography without bugs making it breakable is.

against insecure random number generators, insecure key storage

Those two are of course real problems in many computer applications, but not a real one for digital locks. About the random number generators, yes, thats something people keep up (Netscape 3 got famous by that IIRC), but it's also something that can be considered solved, there are good enough algorithmic ones and for my key I even could use entropy from real life sources. About the storage: the key is stored in the "key" and when talking about "picking" a digital lock I talk about methods without access to the real key. "Key duplication prevention" is a whole differen topic, for digital keys as well as for mechanical ones. Again with the mechanical ones being MUCH MORE out of luck I'd say.

Some locks can be opened by connecting the right wires, by placing a magnet at the right place, sometimes the case is easily opened and then you can take out ROMs andread them out

The case of a good digital lock of course is on the other side of the door Bad for Battery changes but a nice concept otherwise... Doing some freaky magnet or radio stuff is what I would consider successfull picking techniques, those are the things you have to keep in mind when designung such locks, of course. But I'm still sure that if there really one day is an unpickable lock (not undestroyable, but we're not talking about undrillable locks here either) it's a digital one...

So while it can be argued that these approaches aren't really lockpicking anymore, I'd be careful with stating that electronic locks are more secure.

Mechanical locks have quite a few years advantage in development, that's for sure. But I was talking mainly about the technology, and there I see the digital lock as a real step towards an unpickable lock..

I know of one incident where a guy stole money and cigarettes from a cigarette dispenser after opening with an electric pickgun.

I was mainly thinking about homes or business locations. For a cigarette dispenser it could well be that the lock is the weakest part as the rest is hard metal, no windows to throw in, at least for the moneybox part...

Martin

[martinger]

Hi,

Uh oh....
Evva said picking is impossible
I wonder how long that claim will stand.

I don't know about the magnetic lock which really looks like a funny idea, but EVVA also makes other nice locks. We have a 3KS in the club:
EVVA 3KS Page
Image of our EVVA Key
From the top
and this one actually was picked 4 times so far, all four time by the same guy though
Until that happend we also considered it to be virtually unpickable und just used it to shock people asking us for our easiest lock to begin with...

Oh and don't ask me details about the damages on the front, that wasn't us. IIRC it was the original locks owner trying to unjam it after it had locked him out by mechanical disfunction, which also became the reason why he didn't want it anymore - which gives another point to consider when constructing high security locks: how much easier can they fail due to dirt or anything else?

Martin

[Kuju]

There is that other lock that someone posted (I think it was mcm) but its a fibre optic lock, when you put a key in, it completes the circut of wires and it opens. I think it is a very unthought of design of a lock because you just have to insert something with the right perporsions and its open....then again I could be wrong.

[stealthweasle]

I think an unpickible mechanical lock is possible. The key is have the key faceing upwards and slid in like a corkey and then the tumblers point out (so the key would be like a dogtag with the geomtric bumps like on a gemini lock). When all the tumblers line up then a circut is completed and a deadbolt that keeps the lock from turning is pulled back, allowing the lock to be turned and the mechanism to be worked. The big key is no sheer line. This way no pins can be set.

[HeadHunterCEO]

FYI i have begun construction of the lock i described earlier in this thread

[logosys]

There is a guy at the office who has designed an "unpickable" lock with 16-32 finshes on each surface and a +/- .00001 deviation on the straighness of the pins. The pins would be constructed of a treated titanium alloy, meaning that a torque of a couple hundred pounds would be neccessary to produce the deformation required for the pins to set. It uses a miniature hydraulic system in replacement of the springs, causing the lock to "lock down" in case it is drilled. The only downside? Each lock would cost roughly $5,000 each....

[logosys]

There is a guy at the office who has designed an "unpickable" lock with 16-32 finshes on each surface and a +/- .00001 deviation on the straighness of the pins. The pins would be constructed of a treated titanium alloy, meaning that a torque of a couple hundred pounds would be neccessary to produce the deformation required for the pins to set. It uses a miniature hydraulic system in replacement of the springs, causing the lock to "lock down" in case it is drilled. The only downside? Each lock would cost roughly $5,000 each....

And there are 4 shear lines, at each quarter, so if you want to pick it, you have to pick it 4 times (or would a plug spinner fix this?)

[Chucklz]

If you picked it once, then you could plug spin it, but youd have to pick it that first time.

[Guitar_J]

OK.. so obviously one big flaw is the 3rd part of the plug.. which has been discussed alot.. this is one Idea I had... I dunno.. it may not be feasible but it is an idea...

I got this from thinking about how combination locks work...

Perhaps it would be possible to place a bar on the outside of the actual plug.. (note this would require some severe cylinder modification) this bar would be attached to first or second section of the plug and bend at a 90 degree angle to go the length of the plug... Each of the other sections would have a bar that comes out that would hit the bar that spans the length of the plug... result, someone picks the 3rd section only, it rotates a few degrees but the bar on it hits the longer bar and prevents it from rotating...

let me try a picture... I'm not all that good with words...




Of course a path must be cut to allow the bars to move around the lock, there would only be about 180 degrees of rotation, perhaps 270. Perhaps different shapes and orders could be arranged so that if someone is picking the lock they must pick each section in the correct order, ex: pick the 2nd section, then the 1st, then the 3rd...

dunno.. just a thought... shoot it down..call me dumb..

[scientist]

I like that idea with the bars...little tough to implenet, but the idea that someone has to pick the middle section, then the front, then the back(or at least the middle section before the frist) would make the whole thing a big mess...you really need a gentle touch to put tension on the 2nd section without putting it on the first

Then again, if you had a long enough tension wrench(one that can reach past all the ward to the back of the lock), you would lock all three cylinders together and defeat this design entirely.

I was referring to a mechanical lock when I started this post(...wow...its been a while...), electronic locks have that yucky reliability problem:will the battery or fuse run out? What happens then? 9 out of 10 electronic lock systems unlock when relieved of power(fire sfatey reasons, itd suck to be in a house with a fire that the lock locked shut on you cause of power out), and its still pretty trivial to do so(well...trivial and trivial). That is the problem with smartcard, the fiber optic idea, and lots of other things that have tried to replace the regular keylock:you need a battery

-sCi