key decoder

[elbarto]

Hi,
Just a question for those of you familiar with the lockwood locks that tend to be quite common over here in Australia. Most of the lockwood locks I have seen have the C4 keyway (so I am told). My question is, will a key decoder such as the one below work on such a key? I am hopeing that lockwood is similar to some of the american brands and just marketed under a diferent name like General Motors does with alot of its car stuff.

http://www.lockpickshop.com/LKG001.html


Thanks for the help

Elbarto

[JackNco]

yep but its cheaper to get a digital caliper and a list of root depths. I have one on file but im in work atm. some one might link you to that massive list floating around online.

all the best

John

[vrocco]

Here's some D & S info. This was available somewhere in a pdf too, but I can't remember where.

http://web.archive.org/web/20050217020917/dlaco.com/spacing/tips.htm

Lockwood info is in there. Now maybe just find a digital caliper on ebay.....


Hope this helps.

[JackNco]

thats the one I was thinking of. I just copied it all in to a text file for personal reference. Cheers vrocco.

John

[mercurial]

Thee PDF of the same space and depths list is here http://www.toool.nl/space-list.pdf

I do not have a set of calipers at hand to check, but I think the Lockwood specs listed in this document(and the webpage linked above), are not the ones you are looking for - I think they are for an American brand(now defunct?), that was also called Lockwood.

...Mark

[Marco]

The lockwood specs in that list are correct. I checked with my digital caliper and the depths are accurate.

[elbarto]

Thanks for the response guys. The link above does not agree with the key pin sizes I have. here is my locks setup and you can also view the lock I am talking about (rough picture) from a post I made ages ago. I have a set of calipers and I measured them up as I disassembled the lock as soon as I got it.

[position, driver pin height, key pin hieght]

[1, 0.221, 0.166]
[2, 0.144, 0.254]
[3, 0.222, 0.180]
[4, 0.144, 0.270]
[5, 0.221, 0.210]

springs were 0.550" long
pin diameter was 0.114"
all pins were standard

viewtopic.php?p=260271&highlight=#260271[/quote]

I had ordered one of those key decoders (impulse buy, still dont know if i will even get to use it) along with a few other things from lockpicks.com and funny enough they all turned up in the mail this morning.

Using the sclage key decoder I get the code [1,7,2,8,3] tho the last cut is about a 3.5 as it is a bit too sloppy for a 3 but quite a 4. I might take your advice Jackno and use my calipers to decode the key.

I don't know if this code is correct according to the key decoder so i would appreciate it if somebody could tell me what my code SHOULD be according to the measurements I have taken and the appropriate root depth table. Id like to be able to learn to decode these sort of keys so I could come up with something good enough to tell a locksmith a code and him being able to produce a working key.

Also, would I be right in saying that the C4 key is a very common key in Australia and If I can decode my lock I should be able to decode anything with a C4 key way, not necessarily just Lockwood locks (my front door looks like the same basic key tho it doesn't have lockwood printed anywhere)? Or have I misunderstood the key decoding process completely.

Thanks for your help. Its appreciated.

Elbarto

[elbarto]

I just measured the roots depths of the key and I get this (measured from bow to tip)

.320", .230", .310", .220", .280"

The with of the blank is .340" (measured just behind the first cut at the bow)

Does this extra information give anyone an idea as to what the code for the key may be?

Thanks for your help

[Raccoon]

Lockwood specs don't match anything available on LAB's 5-in-1 decoder, or anything that Pro Lock offers. So no, that decoder will not decode Lockwood keys for you.

On that note, I might as well reveal that I am producing sets of decoders that I am manufacturing myself. They will include either 20 or 25 of the popular brands out there in 4 or 5 different decoders. I haven't taken them to press just yet, but they will be available through lockpicks.com when completed.

I might as well ask though, what groupings of brands would you like to see put together? My goal has been to try and get region specific groups together, but that appears to be an impossible task as every region overlaps in one way or another. So perhaps there's some other system of preference in grouping these together? By simple popularity?

[josh0094]

also a thing to add to the digital caliper. they come in handy for all sorts of things. so dont be affrade that you wont ever use them exept for lock stuff!

[elbarto]

Raccoon,

Thanks for the reply. I would love to be able to help you out about what locks we mainly get over here but the only ones I have really noticed on front doors etc have been Lockwood locks. Keep me posted on you decoder set as I would like to grab one when the become available.

Josh0094, I have a set of digital calipers and couldn't agree more, very handy tool to have. Just got to familiarize myself with what root depth corresponds to what depth code for Lockwood locks as Im having a bit of trouble finding information at the moment.

Elbarto

[Marco]

[position, driver pin height, key pin hieght]

[1, 0.221, 0.166]
[2, 0.144, 0.254]
[3, 0.222, 0.180]
[4, 0.144, 0.270]
[5, 0.221, 0.210]

springs were 0.550" long
pin diameter was 0.114"
all pins were standard

That sounds pretty right to me, that corresponds with the depth chart in the link given. Except a couple are out by 1mm. I think there is a mistake on the chart though.This is what is written:

Code: Select all

     ROOT     BOTTOM    MASTER
     DEPTH    PINS      PINS
     -----    ------    ------
# 0  .320     .150
# 1  .305     .165
# 2  .290     .180      .030
# 3  .275     .195      .045
# 4  .260     .210      .060
# 5  .245     .225      .075
# 6  .230     .240      .090
# 7  .215     .355      .105
# 8  .200     .370      .120
# 9  .185     .385      .135


You will notice between the #6 and #7 there is a .115" gap, when it should be .015". So I think it should really look like this:

Code: Select all

     ROOT     BOTTOM    MASTER
     DEPTH    PINS      PINS
     -----    ------    ------
# 0  .320     .150
# 1  .305     .165
# 2  .290     .180      .030
# 3  .275     .195      .045
# 4  .260     .210      .060
# 5  .245     .225      .075
# 6  .230     .240      .090
# 7  .215     .255      .105
# 8  .200     .270      .120
# 9  .185     .285      .135


This would mean that your key code is either 17284 or 48271 (im not sure which way it is supposed to go )

[Raccoon]

Good find on the off-by-0.100 error. The dlico list is full of typos and just incorrect information. You'd be well advised to research any specs before applying them to any commercial work. I lost at least $500 due to trusting dlico's suggested MACS value for Yale.

[Raymond]

Hey, Elbarto

Just a thought on your subject of decoding keys. The decoder is only correct when the lock is factory original or you know that it was pinned to a key cut to original specifications. Many locksmiths have pinned a lock to a specific key given them by a customer that has been worn down and duplicated until it no longer has the same dimensions as an original key. This is very common. If you don't have a micrometer and do have access to a pin kit with either .005" or .003" you can put new pins into your lock, test it for smooth operation, and see if the pin dimensions used and specified for your lock match your code.

I prefer decoding sfic keys and code cutting the duplicates. But, many times the key I am duplicating does not line up accurately with my decoding gauge and I have to guess what the correct cut is. When duplicating keys from a large system (whether master keyed or not) after decoding several keys you start to notice a pattern of whether the cuts are even or odd. This is because of the two-step progression system commonly used in key bitting arrays.

On a slightly different question, has anyone compiled a comparison list of what key blank number in the USA is the same blank in the UK or Australia? Is a KW1 the same as a C4 or an A1? Is our common Kwikset actually the same as your Yale?

[Raccoon]

On a slightly different question, has anyone compiled a comparison list of what key blank number in the USA is the same blank in the UK or Australia? Is a KW1 the same as a C4 or an A1? Is our common Kwikset actually the same as your Yale?

Do you mean literally or figuratively?

Literally, our KW1 is KW1, over here and in the UK. We also have Yale (albeit less common, usually commercial) and they are also the same here as over there.

The difference you will find in blank designation is the factory producing the blanks. We mostly reference ILCO or ILCO-EZ in the US, which is generally 1-2 letters followed by 1-2 numbers. For instance, M1 is really just the ILCO designation for what Master Lock officially calls 1K. Whether you boys abroad call it 1K or M1 or something-else is entirely up to who is dominating the market in sales of blanks.