5G Pick Choice - Safeventures against Chris Belcher

[lockey1963]

The pick still has locks it will not pick and the improvement you post on is to the handle and not the pick.

If a pick only picks a lock on the left of the door then it doesnt do the job and cannot pick the said lock for someone to be of any commercial use, unless of course you only attend jobs with their locks left mounted.

as a toy to play with on a bench it may give some amusement.

but in recent years it seems acceptable to copy blatently picks , and then to sell to anyone who pays on the net regardless of intention, but this is down to an individuals own concience and ethics.

[British Standard]

Hello
(If the post about only picking left set locks is about the Dangerfield curtain pick then I don't know what you're talking about - of course it does both! - explain?)
I have opened a seris of BS curtain locks with the Dangerfield Curtain Pick - it works very well. Curtain pickers know you have to fiddle around with pick ends for different locks - I was OK with the BS Union and CHubb locks - I got an ERA Fortress and I know I'll have to bend the picks back on themselves as the key is warded. Curtain pickers know this - you hav to mess about with the pick ends for different locks - The Dangerfield one comes with 2 different types of picks (2 X Left & Right). Many people on UK Bump Keys forum are reporting excellent results with this pick and as we send more out I've no doubt the vids will appear - I'm even going to buy a vid camera to make a vid of me doing these locks - and more).
I don't know what all the fuss is about - SouthOrd make picks very similar to Peterson. They all make snap-guns very similar to Brockhage - that's a free market - and the upshot is the price of the ICL one has gone down and we offer 4 picks and full technical support via the forum - the customer wins.
regards
Bristish Standard.
PS - I read the rules and apologise for repeatedly breaking them before)

[British Standard]

Hello all
I don't know if the comment about 'left mounted only lock' is about the Dangerfield pick then that's crazy - it does both easily.
Regarding the wires - as CB says - and he really knows - you have to fiddle around with the pick ends for different locks - ThDangerfield one comes with four picks 2 different left and right wires which you can manipulate as you wish, two are right angled two are kinked (again L&F) - I've opened plenty of BS locks wit it Chubb, Union. I've just bought an Era Fortress and I know (from the wards on the key) I'll have to close up the 90 degree angle on the pick end to get this - or pull the pick stem out and up from the 'sleeve' this is expected.

All this talk of 'ripping off etc' remember - southord make tubular picks virtually identical to Peterson - Brockhage make tools identical to other people's - it's what happens in the free market - and what has the upshot been? The ICL pick is getting cheaper in most shops and we've offered an alternative. The ustomer has now a wider choice at better prices - sounds like a good thing to me.
regards
Bristish Standard

[British Standard]

Hello all
I don't know if the comment about 'left mounted only lock' is about the Dangerfield pick then that's crazy - it does both easily.
Regarding the wires - as CB says - and he really knows - you have to fiddle around with the pick ends for different locks - ThDangerfield one comes with four picks 2 different left and right wires which you can manipulate as you wish, two are right angled two are kinked (again L&F) - I've opened plenty of BS locks wit it Chubb, Union. I've just bought an Era Fortress and I know (from the wards on the key) I'll have to close up the 90 degree angle on the pick end to get this - or pull the pick stem out and up from the 'sleeve' this is expected.

All this talk of 'ripping off etc' remember - southord make tubular picks virtually identical to Peterson - Brockhage make tools identical to other people's - it's what happens in the free market - and what has the upshot been? The ICL pick is getting cheaper in most shops and we've offered an alternative. The ustomer has now a wider choice at better prices - sounds like a good thing to me.
regards
Bristish Standard

I thought I'd timed out - could you delete this post please)

[mcm757207]

The southord tubular picks and peterson tubular picks are completely different, they are in no way similar besides the fact that they pick tubular locks.

[British Standard]

Hello
Surely you get my point though?
regards
British Standard

[Chris B]

Good afternoon all,

Just to clarify a point – my post was directed to taylorgdl with regards to information about the CB Pick / ERA Fortress, just for info to take on board.

With reference to other styles of picks [which follow the RB Curtain Pick design], I was referring specifically to the ERA Fortress lock.

The RB tool, as I understand it, was originally designed around picking the Union 5 Lever Non-BS Curtain Lock – subsequently it was found that the Curtain Driving Pin at the end of the Pick Body was, in some cases too large for some other locks, and required fine tuning by the user to allow it to fit other locks. This is where those people who have copied this design dimensionally have had the same problem.

I won’t go into my views on copying or cloning as I’ve said an awful lot on this forum before and I’m fairly sure that most of you know my standpoint on this subject.

Remember that the RB tool, was NOT designed for the ERA Fortress. The RB tool was out at least 15 years before the ERA Fortress hit the light of day. The RB Tool was designed for a specific purpose, which it succeeds with.

Although the tools in question [RB etc] can be used on a left-hand mounted ERA Fortress, they will require, in some cases, a slight modification to the tool and also a change in the wire design.
To make them useful on both the left-hand and the right-hand mounted ERA Fortress locks, it will require a substantial change in design of the Pick Body / Stem.
And, no - sorry, before you ask, I will not post the modification.

regards Chris B

[Chris B]

[quote="British Standard"][quote="British Standard"]
Regarding the wires - as CB says - and he really knows - you have to fiddle around with the pick ends for different locks [/quote]

This is not entirely correct; the wires that I make are designed to behave differently within the various locks. For instance: some wires remain sat on the Pick Stem/body and others may rotate around the top of the curtain without touching the Pick Stem/body inside the lock.
Further adjustment of the wires should not be undertaken by the user.
The material used is Spring Steel, and continuous alteration of angles will lead to weakness at the bends, and the obvious result will be breakage.

Regards Chris B

[British Standard]

Hello Chris - and all
I really appreciated your cool headed approach to this debate and apologise if I've come across a bit bulshy and may have confused some things - it happens.
In the curtain picking fraternity i find myself it is and always has been standard procedure to modify pick ends for certain jobs - making one tool for many locks will always incur such problems - I can think of half a dozen picking/smithing tools of the top of my head that are often modified for a particular job.
The important point is where you mention the pick was designed before the ERA fortress was designed - and no doubt there will be curtain locks designed soon that will put other 'Newer' designs 'behind technology' they're not obsolete though - they're just in need of modification - you say yourself you won't 'post the modification'[required to make a pick 'up to date as it were] but people who know how to pick these locks know such things - it's part of the process.

Lots of people who bought the Dangerfield Curtain Pick are having a great time with it and opening many diverse locks - including myself - I will post some videos (when I can borrow a camera!) of me opening a wide range of BS Chubb, Union, Era etc (including fortress (it's obvious you will need to bend the picks back upon themselves (87 degrees?) because you can see the key is warded and you want to get 'back' to engage that lever.

regards
British Standard

[ilmr]

The pick still has locks it will not pick and the improvement you post on is to the handle and not the pick.

Actually the first paragraph speaks about the handle, and the second constitutes of:
"New wires have been designed to pick under the lowest levers in mortice locks." I was referring to that.

[Chris B]

Generally, wires that come with curtain picks are pick specific.
Modifying them could alter their functionality.
We do know that some people make their own wires.
This is different to actually altering the original wire.

As a general rule, for mortice locks, the only picks that get modified to suit are: 2 in 1 picks, over-lifters, wires for non-curtain locks etc.
Recently a member of 101 came onto this site and said that the CB F Wire was incorrect, so he straightened it – he found out the hard way that he should have left it as it was.
If I were to produce a tool that came with wires, which then had to be adjusted, I think that I would get a lot of complaints.

Therefore, with curtain picks, the wires that come with them will cater for most locks [with some limitations] with no modification. There are several locks on the market that do require specialised tools to be able to open them using a picking method. For example: the Chubb 3G114E and the Chubb RKS.

There are two other tools on the market for the Fortress and they are lock specific, which makes them quite expensive to open a single lock, however, if you open a lot of them you may consider that its worth the expense.

With regards to videos, we’ve watched several that show people trying to pick mortice locks, bumping and pin cylinder picking etc,
The thing to remember about videos, is that they not only show how clever some people are at all sorts of exploits, but they also show those in the know, just how bad some of these people’s skills are.

To anyone starting out manufacturing a new locksmith tool:
Your best bet at showing any tool, is at a show where locksmiths can use the tool, take the locks apart – changing the lever combination, and generally get the feel of the tool. Or find a Locksmith meeting and take along your tool samples with various locks, and let the locksmiths experiment with them.
If you are producing a tool that you want the experts to buy, then let the experts play with them.
From experience that I’ve gleaned from going to the Locksmith Shows, you can tell immediately if someone knows what they are doing when they handle a tool.
You might like to send a sample to a well-known independent locksmith who is not connected with tool manufacturing, and is adept at picking, and let him assess the tool for you.
This has two advantages, [1] you can rectify any problems that might arise before promoting the tool, and [2] you may well get some good advertising.

regards Chris B

[freakparade3]

If anyone wishes to send me their old CB F Wire, with a S.A.E. [stamp addressed envelope – preferably padded] I will be happy to modify it for them to improve its performance,
Email me first and I'll send you my address.

My best regards to all
Chris B

You have to admire a man that stands behind his product and is willing to do this. I can't see many toolmakers being willing to do this for their customers.

[British Standard]

Hello all
One point of interest:

You might like to send a sample to a well-known independent locksmith who is not connected with tool manufacturing, and is adept at picking, and let him assess the tool for you.
This has two advantages, [1] you can rectify any problems that might arise before promoting the tool, and [2] you may well get some good advertising.

We did exactly this - our picks were sent to our technical advisor who has spent years working with these locks and tools and put together some of the best Mortice ID MAnuals available - we wouldn't put a tool together if it didn't work, it would be ridicolous - and with a forum with over 500 members, how could we survive if we sold dodgy products? We wouldn't, we'd drown, the opposite however is true, we go from strength to strength.
I don't think I'll be adding any more to this debate and I sense by Chris's post that it's all geting everyone down. I felt I should say my thoughts and read some feedback which I have. Really, differences of opinion and differences of preference is what gives us choices and options and long may it continue.
regards
British Standard.

[British Standard]

The Dangerfield Curtain Pick will do the Era Fortress - I will get you a nice video
Bristsh Standard

[lockey1963]

chris D

i dont think you would attract any where near the same critisisms if you did not sell picks and bypass tools to anyone who will pay , why not do as every other toolmaker does and pay out for a stand at the MLA show and really put your tool to the test, if its everything you claim then you will more than recover your costs from the show