Raking - it isn't blunt-force trauma. You still need finesse

[Beyond]

And you seem to agree. Yet YouTube vids DO show raking being done very fast and hard and crudelt.

As I said, you can rake as fast as you want in some cases and it would be the best option. Prove me wrong.

Ooooops! You have just created a paradox. In science, that usually means that the hypothesis was full of road apples.

How so?

I said this worked well for the Masterlocks I've tried.

A-N-E-C-D-O-T-A-L

But thanks for allowing your wonderful personality to shine on this thread.

Turn out the lights pleas. kthnx.

What's wrong? Can't take criticism? Don't post articles then. Sorry, I'm just trying to help newcomers discern the valuable and invaluable material.

[LeeNo]

Ooooops! You have just created a paradox. In science, that usually means that the hypothesis was full of road apples.

How so?

You alluded to my opinion being worthless because I watched YouTube videos. Yet a technique shown in YouTube videos is what you are mentioning as a reference for why fast raking is good.

I said this worked well for the Masterlocks I've tried.

A-N-E-C-D-O-T-A-L

Everything is anecdotal unless presented with hard statistics which have been verified and the results duplicated by neutral parties. While it is true that some people's opinions are more respected than others, they are still A-N-E-C-D-O-T-A-L.

What's wrong? Can't take criticism? Don't post articles then.

Nothing's wrong. But thanks! I took it fine, thanks for asking! But telling me not to post articles just because I disagreed with you is a tad bit "red-state", wouldn't you agree? Then again, I guess ya'll need to use up yer fash-shee-istic enurgee fore'n next Janurry

Sorry, I'm just trying to help newcomers discern the valuable and invaluable material.

Thanks, you're doing great. Hey, why not go ahead and um, yeah, continue doing so. That would be great. Thanks. Oh, and I'm gonna need to go ahead and, yeah, take that stapler back. Thanks.

[Beyond]

You alluded to my opinion being worthless because I watched YouTube videos. Yet a technique shown in YouTube videos is what you are mentioning as a reference for why fast raking is good.

I alluded to the fact that I thought it was funny that someone searching YouTube for raking felt the need to write a raking article.

Also, I didn't use the video as a reference. I haven't even seen the video(s) about the aforementioned raking. My main gripe was that you said wild, fast raking isn't the correct way when in fact it can be. For example, most disc wafers are very susceptible to open if you rake fast and wildly, ask any locksmith.

Everything is anecdotal unless presented with hard statistics which have been verified and the results duplicated by neutral parties.

Wrong. Saying hook picks are great for picking nearly all locks wouldn't be anecdotal because several members on here, if not all, could confirm that. Same with my statements on raking. Anyone on here with correct and valid information on raking will confirm all of my statements as truthful.

Nothing's wrong. But thanks! I took it fine, thanks for asking! But telling me not to post articles just because I disagreed with you is a tad bit "red-state", wouldn't you agree?

I don't have a problem with user submitted material. Heck, that's how I first learned to lock pick many years back through the grace of TextFiles.

I do have a problem when the information is incomplete, invalid, obtuse, and wildly inaccurate.

I appreciate your attempt to contribute but I feel you did more harm than good. You didn't identify any situations or locks that would benefit from your "slow and subtle" raking technique or locks that wouldn't. You boldly labeled "fast" and "wild" raking as incorrect and then tried to explain the "correct" way to rake. Even then, you're explanation was elementary at best.

Stick pick in slow, lift, pull pick out slow......duh?

Going by your article, a "newbie" would think that your method is the only way raking is done which isn't true or correct by any stretch of the imagination.

Thanks, you're doing great. Hey, why not go ahead and um, yeah, continue doing so. That would be great. Thanks. Oh, and I'm gonna need to go ahead and, yeah, take that stapler back. Thanks.

Yes, when logic fails pull an obscure and unrelated movie quote to justify your inexperience.

Also, at 43 I hope you're working on your debate skills. I'm a kid and you got tempered, I didn't/haven't. I'm supposed to be the "know it all" and "hotshot" that is quick to jump the gun but you did that first, which is incredibly immature. You are a "newbie" and as such, you shouldn't take offense when someone is trying to correct your "ideas". Grow up.

[Dragunov-21]

@Beyond

At the risk of letting rip at someone who in all possibility could be more experienced than me, what the hell?!

First off, yes bumping and pick guns are "fast and furious", but they work on the same principles of kinetic energy as 8-ball or newton's cradles. Pick guns do not pick in the traditional sense, they hammer the driver pins above the shear line; completely different to raking.

I for one found this to be an accurate and helpful article, he didn't say it was the only way to open a lock, just that he found it very effective.

And just because he started on YouTube doesn't automatically corrupt his subsequent knowledge; I used to read the Anarchist's Cookbook when I was 13 or so, does that mean that although I now know proper chemical theory, that knowledge is useless?

Anyway, I'd suggest that this part of the thread ends before it turns into an argument and gets locked, but it's up to you guys.

[Johnny P]

Thank you, Dragonov-21

Things were starting to deteriorate.

[Beyond]

First off, yes bumping and pick guns are "fast and furious", but they work on the same principles of kinetic energy as 8-ball or newton's cradles. Pick guns do not pick in the traditional sense, they hammer the driver pins above the shear line; completely different to raking.

Are you serious? Pick guns emulate raking. The point of a pick gun is simplify the amount of effort of raking while still achieving the same goal:"oscillating the pins in a manner that causes them to move up and down very fast in the hopes that the shear line will be clear and the plug will turn."

In fact, pick guns are deemed better because they provide a uniform and predictable motion while still acting as if you were raking the lock.

Not to mention, his first post says:

Raking is very rarely a matter of sticking the rake in the lock with no tension, applying slight tension and then ripping the rake out of the lock as fast as you can while applying a little bit of upwards force.

It's not that rare at all, maybe if you don't do this on a daily basis.

I for one found this to be an accurate and helpful article, he didn't say it was the only way to open a lock, just that he found it very effective.

Pretty pathetic then.

By your logic as well, he also didn't say it wasn't the only way to open a lock. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

And just because he started on YouTube doesn't automatically corrupt his subsequent knowledge; I used to read the Anarchist's Cookbook when I was 13 or so, does that mean that although I now know proper chemical theory, that knowledge is useless?

Like I said, it doesn't matter. He said their usage of raking was wrong, it simply isn't, end of discussion. Fast and subtle, slow and wild, if it gets the job done it gets the job done. There is no concrete, right raking technique, at all.

Anyway, I'd suggest that this part of the thread ends before it turns into an argument and gets locked, but it's up to you guys.

Why? It's a forum. It's for debate. Grow a spine. There are some good points being addressed and debated here.

[freakparade3]

Beyond, you are not trying to debate. In a debate you consider other opinions and then attempt to make your point. You are not considering anyones opinion but your own. You are doing nothing but flaming a new member that took the time to write out his ideas of raking to try to help other new members. There is far to much of this going on and it needs to stop. When we stop getting new members the site gets stagnant. The guys that have been here a few years don't post everyday about what they picked. The more experienced members log in to help new members with their questions. If new members leave because of users like you the site will die. You need to grow up or go away.

[Beyond]

Beyond, you are not trying to debate. In a debate you consider other opinions and then attempt to make your point. You are not considering anyones opinion but your own.

Did you miss the part where I said his slow and subtle approach works perfectly fine in certain situations?

You are doing nothing but flaming a new member that took the time to write out his ideas of raking to try to help other new members.

I'm new. It didn't help me.

There is far to much of this going on and it needs to stop. When we stop getting new members the site gets stagnant.

Then I suggest you provide an environment that promotes growth and provides only legit material.

he guys that have been here a few years don't post everyday about what they picked. The more experienced members log in to help new members with their questions. If new members leave because of users like you the site will die.

Leave because of me? Lol. If they can't handle be corrected then they are in the wrong hobby/profession to begin with.

Hypothetical situation, a user comes on here and uses this method PURELY when just getting into lock picking. He tries and tries on that padlock but to no avail. He goes to another forum and sees a better tutorial on raking, and there are better ones on many forums, and successfully picks the lock.

Do you think hes going to come back here, the site that provided him with a method that didn't work? Or, do you think he will go with the one that provided him with the method that allowed him to pick the lock?

You need to grow up or go away.

I'm calm. The OP got all up in a tussle once I corrected. Heaven forbid a self-proclaimed "newbie" gets corrected.

He should be humble like I was/am everyday working around every other locksmiths. When I am corrected using a method I believe is write, I say nothing else besides, "Thank you". That's what his attitude needs to be. I am shown better methods everyday and I don't get an attitude to the person taking the time out of their day to improve my skills. Instead, I shut my mouth and open my ears and eyes. I consider it a privilege to be learning from some of the best at my job and I DEFINITELY will not get an attitude with them.

If anything, he needs to grow up and learn the value of knowledge and help.

None of you have presented any information that would discredit mine, the only attacks you have put forth against me are that I need to "settle down". Since when are you all able to discern tone from my posts?

All of you need to stop jumping to conclusions. Let the debate go forth, I welcome him or anyone to put forth anything that shows my understanding of raking being wrong. Like I said, I love to learn.

[Afisch]

I think that there is nothing wrong with debating the best method for raking.
What needs to not be the focus here is picking holes in each others vocabulary and such.
When I started to pick locks i would have prefered to pick locks i found that there was much more I could learn by raking locks more slowly.

Also, when picking a more difficult lock, raking the pins to security pin false sets, then contiuing with a hook pick is easier to do if the raking has been done in a controled fashion, in my opinion.

It is often shown, however how effective quick movements of a lockpick can be when raking.
Most of the early rounds of many of the tourements are opened within seconds with that technique I belive.

The reason I belive this guide to be valuble, is that the majority of people will not read the archive of info on this site before picking and are far more likely to view a few youtube videos. Watching only youtube videos is likely to give the impression "as much tension as possible insert pick and ram it around". Both techniques need a chance to be considered.

[Beyond]

I'm not really debating the best method of raking, though.

[LeeNo]

I was only trying to share what I had learned during my newbie forays into picking.

I didn't mean to imply that what I posted was the only way to rake. I am sorry if anyone came away with that impression.



I have to ask.... is it OK for newbies like me to share their experiences here? I realize that what I say might not be worded correctly but I just wanted to share with other new lock-pickers.

I didn't realize my post would be attacked like this.

[Beyond]

I have to ask.... is it OK for newbies like me to share their experiences here?

Yes but for the sake of this forums reputation I would hope that you feel obligated to fully research what you are going to be writing about to ensure that you don't mislead or misrepresent accurate details.

[LeeNo]

I have to ask.... is it OK for newbies like me to share their experiences here?

Yes but for the sake of this forums reputation I would hope that you feel obligated to fully research what you are going to be writing about to ensure that you don't mislead or misrepresent accurate details.

The term "fully research" , in the context you provided, implies that there exists a final answer on the issue.

I don't believe this is true. I shared my experience and even prefaced my post by saying

First off, at age 43, I am a newbie at this.

Are you against my age? My nick? What?

I thought I made it clear that I wasn't the final authority on the subject of raking.

Why do you want to silence new members from sharing their experiences? I don't think that is in the best interests of this forum.

But have a nice day regardless!

k thnx.

[Beyond]

The term "fully research" , in the context you provided, implies that there exists a final answer on the issue.

There is a final answer. Look into any books or articles written on "raking" by professionals and you'll notice that give or take a few tips/practices they all say the same thing.

Are you against my age? My nick? What?

Your incompetence.

I thought I made it clear that I wasn't the final authority on the subject of raking.

I don't care. I am merely disputing your claim that fast raking isn't the correct way. If it's working for them on those videos then, get this shit, IT OBVIOUSLY WORKS.

Why do you want to silence new members from sharing their experiences? I don't think that is in the best interests of this forum.

You're the only one I've ever taken a stance on. The rest are fine, I've enjoyed reading them. Your article on the other hands was so incorrect and littered with so many mistakes that I felt the need to correct it before anyone started to believe this nonsense.

[Diphoration]

It pisses me off to simply read Beyond's posts, if you don't like what LeeNo said, just keep it for yourself. LeeNo only wanted to share something with the other members and he did.

I believe this site is there so we can help each other out by giving knowledge from our experience, he shared an experience he had and described he wasn't a pro, therefore his post was totally correct. Our common hobby is LockPicking not DramaMaking. So if you're not happy with his experience he shared about raking, just make yourself useful and make a guide that is better and stop flamming him.