Raking - it isn't blunt-force trauma. You still need finesse

[freakparade3]

I think Beyond's know it all attitude is what fired up so many people here. Leeno wrote a pretty good guide to help other new members, he did not deserve to be treated the way he was by another new member who it seems was looking for a way to piss people off and was being unreasonable.

[dougfarre]

I just want everyone to understand that an author should defend his work respectfully, regardless of the who's saying what in the audience.

[Dragunov-21]

I'd just like to bring to the fore the difference between debate and rudeness.

ie Polite Debate: I don't agree with you saying that fast raking is an ineffective method; it works for many (myself included), and your tutorial could steer newbies away from what is an important lockpicking skill.

ie Rude:

Very presumptuous, then again, you're watching YouTube for lock picking help.
That's not raking. You're comparing apples and oranges.
Also I'm not sure this is really a 101 tutorial.

...

<Whatever he quoted from LeeNo>

Wrong.

Without certain sections, yes, Beyond's original reply would have been a valid, non-aggressive post, but he chose to try and shoot LeeNo down.


And I would just like some clarification from a more experienced member, but bumping and mech. pickguns (and snapper picks) *do* work the way I described, yes? Because (assuming that I'm right) another problem I have is his response

Are you serious? Pick guns emulate raking. The point of a pick gun is simplify the amount of effort of raking while still achieving the same goal:"oscillating the pins in a manner that causes them to move up and down very fast in the hopes that the shear line will be clear and the plug will turn."

In fact, pick guns are deemed better because they provide a uniform and predictable motion while still acting as if you were raking the lock.

My understanding (from physics and various LP101 posts) is that kinetic energy is transferred from the gun's needle, through the key pins, into the driver pins, which then shoot past the shearline.

[raimundo]

actually, debate as practiced by pimplyfaced fat boys in highschool and politicians is about mischaracterizing your opponents position and setting up strawmen to knock down, and never acknowleging when you have been completly and thoroughly beaten, never listening to the other side and using all the old formal logical fallacies, such as arguementum ad bellicosum, the appeal to authority, the black and white fallacy, catastrophizing, ad hominem attacks, and many more.

[raimundo]

after that post, I went to wikipedia and looked under fallacy, there is a good intro and at the bottom of the page, there are four internet links to other places where these are more fully discussed. facinating stuff, its been a long time since I studied that in college and forgot so much of it, but I can still spot a false arguement so its difficult to watch debates and have any respect for debaters.

[LeeNo]

I never even thought I was debating. I just shared some info and got sort of blasted for it. So I replied in an off-the-cuff manner.

[MacGyver101]

I'm wading into this a little late, but would like to start by saying thank you to LeeNo for taking the time to share his thoughts in the original post. (I think several others have already said what needs to be said about the ensuing "debate", so I'll leave it at that.)

. . . bumping and mech. pickguns (and snapper picks) *do* work the way I described, yes?

Yes: I would respectfully disagree with Beyond's statement, and would argue that pick guns and raking accomplish their goals through slightly different techniques.

If anything, I would suggest that pick guns and bump keys are effectively identical, in terms of their mechanical interaction with the lock: in both cases, they are imparting an impulse onto the bottom pins, in order to shoot the drivers up above the shear line, creating a gap that allows the cylinder to rotate. Raking, however, differs in two significant ways: (i) the pins are not all manipulated at the same time (this can have an advantage, depending on binding order); and, to a lesser extent, (ii) raking is normally successful because the the bottom pins have been pushed up and set at the shear line, rather than because impulses have fired the drivers up above the shear line -- it's a subtle but important difference, because it means that tension plays a slightly different role than it does with a bump key or pick gun.

[Beyond]

Sorry for my actions/responses on this thread. It got a heated and I apologize for that. No sense in getting off to a bad start with such a great community. I'd like really contribute and stick with this forum so, I'm going to really watch my actions. Once again, sorry.

[Lockstar]

Sorry for my actions/responses on this thread. It got a heated and I apologize for that. No sense in getting off to a bad start with such a great community. I'd like really contribute and stick with this forum so, I'm going to really watch my actions. Once again, sorry.

You acted like a complete azz(darn filter).

But, it shows a mature attitude to offer a genuine apology.
I hope you can stay and contribute and learn. You seem to be intelligent and well spoken.
Just promise to use your powers for good from now on.

For Leeno the author, I say thank you for a great write up.
It presented a very useful alternative to the N00bTube videos.
I have to confess that the original article inspired me to make some new racks and give raking a try. The brutal 'rake and rape' methodology that seems so prevalant wasn't working for me, but when I slowed down and tried a different approach, I started to get results.
In all fairness to Beyond, the buttefly quote helped as well.