Lock bumping

by **vello66** » 22 Dec 2007 13:57

Does bumping work on locks, that have pins on the bottom of the lock?

by **UWSDWF** » 22 Dec 2007 14:53

err...ehhh..huh?

by **Eyes_Only** » 22 Dec 2007 15:38

Are you refering to something like a dimple lock? If then yes, it can work.

by **freakparade3** » 22 Dec 2007 15:40

My guess is he's in europe and the locks are upside down. Either way the answer is yes.

by **RangerF150** » 22 Dec 2007 16:23

freakparade3 wrote:My guess is he's in europe and the locks are upside down. Either way the answer is yes.

I think you will find that in Europe the locks are right side up, it's in the US that the locks are "upside down" , so there :-)

Anyway it is possible to bump a so called upside down lock, you just need someone to hold you upside down by the legs and your good to go, easy!

by **freakparade3** » 22 Dec 2007 17:36

RangerF150 wrote:
freakparade3 wrote:My guess is he's in europe and the locks are upside down. Either way the answer is yes.

I think you will find that in Europe the locks are right side up, it's in the US that the locks are "upside down" , so there

I knew as soon as I hit submit that someone would say that. :lol:

Mabye we should make a poll to get everyone's opinion.

by **globallockytoo** » 22 Dec 2007 22:14

I think the reason that many keyholes in the European market are considered "upside down" may be in fact due to the perception of locks and keys in general for most of history.

Prior to the invention of the modern pin tumbler principle by Linus Yale in 1869 (thereabouts), most, if not all locks used the mortise (bit key) principle, with the flag of the key below the pin or pipe. This common design of a keyhole was widely accepted as the correct way to make a lock.

Lane (Black and Dekker) made a 1920 and 1930 style rimlock that use a bit key (mortise key) that will fit in either position (up/down)

Because the perception of a keyhole maintained that the shape should be still in the mortise type, when pin tumbler cylinders appeared in the European market, the acceptance of the "other" way around was too difficult for the market to adopt. Manufacturers found that public acceptance of the modern pin tumbler principle was only effective if the cylinders mimicked the same shape as mortise type keys. Hence the reason teardrop shaped lock cylinders were introduced and building contractors would install even modern pin tumbler knobsets etc, in the generally perceived European method.

When Linus Yale patented his modern pin tumbler principle, perhaps the intention to have the pins operate the other way around, was because if the springs in the bible failed for whatever reason, gravity would continue to maintain normal operations of the tumblers.

With the European style pin tumblers, if for any reason the springs fail inside the bible, the "bottom pins" will not locate properly and the key will not work.

Which method is better or correct? This is a matter for conjecture and argument. I do think that the principle of gravity needs to be considered as integral in the reasoning for the "American" method.

by **Beyond** » 22 Dec 2007 22:36

What are these "bump" keys you guys speak of? :shock:

by **Jaakko** » 23 Dec 2007 19:11

I'm happy that we don't generally use those Euro-profile locks in here

Apparently it only gives a headache every time it is pondered that which way it is the wrong way around

Beyond, bump keys are keys that are cut to the deepest cut, i.e. "99999" cut and it can open a normal pin tumbler lock with the help of Newtons energy principals

by **Beyond** » 23 Dec 2007 19:20

I was being sarcastic lol.

by **Eyes_Only** » 23 Dec 2007 19:27

Go ahead Jaakko, preach to all of us about the superiority of Abloy. :roll:

by **Jaakko** » 24 Dec 2007 2:23

Eyes_Only wrote:Go ahead Jaakko, preach to all of us about the superiority of Abloy.

Haha

...now I started pondering, if the Abloys in Euro-profile format comes with the sidebar up or down...

by mh » 24 Dec 2007 18:08

Jaakko wrote:
Eyes_Only wrote:Go ahead Jaakko, preach to all of us about the superiority of Abloy.

Haha ...now I started pondering, if the Abloys in Euro-profile format comes with the sidebar up or down...

It's down, of course, and gravity will cause the lock to operate properly, even if the springs should fail...

by **xayandevorak** » 13 Jan 2008 18:17

Bumping works more with the bump force, than gravity. Although Im sure gravity has small effects on bumping, I dont think it disables bump keys from an upside down lock. Besides, I've never had trouble with it. My aunt put new locks on her house, and they were upside down, before correcting them I tried bumping, no problem there.

by **LeeNo** » 13 Jan 2008 18:24

xayandevorak wrote:Bumping works more with the bump force, than gravity. Although Im sure gravity has small effects on bumping, I dont think it disables bump keys from an upside down lock.

This is true. Bump keys work by transferring the forward force of the key to the key pins, which transfer the force to the driver pins. Because is the force through the keypins is immediately transferred to the driver pins, the key pins themselves do not move very much at all (the analogy is those set of ball bearings on strings that work so that when you pull the endmost ball bearing out and let it swing against the next ball bearing, that ball bearing doesn't move - only the ball bearing on the far end swings out).

Because the concept to bumping is not try and time the tension to catch all the pins at the moment the keypins have fallen past the shearline but before the driver pins are pushed past the shearline (something that would be, basically, impossible because of the differing lengths of the key pins), gravity should have no effect on bumping.

Lock bumping

Lock bumping

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