Euro profile handles and boltwork. Is it just me?

[workstation]

I think these features would be good on a euro profile multipoint lock:

1) Smooth, non-protruding protection of the outer cylinder. I have seen euro handles that protect the cylinder, but always with a protruding thing: ugly.

2) Lack of visible screws on the inside. (these screws are very ugly IMO and unnecessary - the interior handle should be two-piece with lugs)

3) Some way to bolt the door without using the cylinder. I'm imagining a thumbturn like a bathroom privacy lock; there's plenty of room with the long euro handles. This would be especially good for back doors, and render the NDE resistance of the cylinder moot. These could be made right now without any R&D at all. Just block the handle.

4) Switchable automatic locking. This could be a third setting along with item 3. I find it amazing that you can buy "back door" euro locks and you can buy the incredibly stupid front door euro locks (with the handle that never opens the door: moronic), but, despite the example of US knob- and lever sets, you can't buy something that can be switched between the two settings. It would also be good if it were completely spring loaded so you didn't have to lift the handle to throw the main bolts, although I suppose that might give reliability problems.

5) Sensible handling of double doors. I find it amazing that the best I have been able to find here for the slave door is a completely separate lock with its own cylinder. Come on, why would you have two cylinders for one opening? If you're going to have that, why have a multipoint lock at all? Why not just have several single point ones? Clearly the slave door should not have its own cylinder, just a blank handle, and its boltwork should be controllable by this handle unless the by the master door boltwork is thrown, in which case it should be fixed. This may require a bit of thought to implement, especially if you want locking the master door to automatically throw the bolts of the slave door (rather than just be impossible till the slave door is locked) but I don't think it would be hard.

Does anyone know if any of these are available? And if not, why not?!

Merry Christmas!

[Bump]

1. Correctly fitted there should be no projection of the cylinder, this usually occurs where the fitter cannot offer the correctly sized cylinder. Modern door furniture is now becoming more standardised in profile thereby reducing the random thickness of older profiles.

2. Got to be able to get the things off somehow! Union Raven & Ambassador type handles have concealed fixings but they come at a huge cost. I suspect the most customers dont really get a bee in the bonnet about this one.

3&4. Don't really understand your point! Thumturns are already available but come with security implications and you can convert nightlatch functions on most MPL's. I, and most of the general public, agree that nightlatch pads/levers are a pain in the ar*e and I am often asked to refit them to lever/lever.

5. You can get double doors in the configuration you suggest with face mounted finger bolts. Not sure about auto-locking from the master door though, this would require some type of linkage that adds to the complexity of an already over complex MPL.

[workstation]

1)

No, not what I meant.
I have however just found something suitable:

http://www.fsdinnovation.com/

I have no idea what the embossed bit does, though, other than look silly.

Incidentally, it does amaze me that joinery manufacturers will put pictures of their work on their websites with the lock cylinders sticking out? Have you noticed? Why not attach an "I am incompetent" sign for good measure?

2)

I had a look at those Union handles. Ugly! What I meant was that the interior handle should be in two pieces, held together with lugs so that the visible plate can be slipped off the one that's got the screws in, provided that the cylinder has been removed. I have seen this in old patents. The same goes for cylinder escutcheons, too.

3)

No, I meant that the thumbturn would be separate from the cylinder.

4)

It's not just that they're a pain. It's that they're a completely wasted opportunity to make a decent product. However, when you say you can convert functions, does that mean that you can switch between it being like a nightlatch and it being like a normal lever-lever? Can the user do that? My point is that the user should be able to do it. I know some of them have a snib on the edge of the door, but this is next to useless as the door then doesn't latch.

5)

Face mounted finger bolts are indeed better than having a separate cylinder, although they make the doors asymmetrical and you have to bend down to use them, which is irritating and needless.

I do not think any of this is complicated, particularly compared to the effort people will put into the cylinder. The user doesn't appreciate the cylinder at all, but they would apprecaite a better designed interface with the product.

[workstation]

Ok, in the traditional spirit of answering your own question, I've found:

http://www.liftandlock.com/

This seems to pass 1) and be a noble attempt at 3)
It looks like when you lift the handle it stays in the raised position until you press a button on the inside to allow it to lower. A bit inelegant IMHO, as you will be able to see from the outside whether the door is locked in this way (not a good thing, surely?) and it will look a bit silly with the handle sticking up in the air. I would also worry a little about fire safety as it might not be obvious that you have to push the button to lower the handle. That's a minor concern, but they should be able to make their idea work without a button i.e. so that a certain force on the inner handle can lower it, but no force on the outer handle can do this.

Good to see people are working on this stuff, though.

I've come to see that the reason for 1) is that people want to be able to swap the handles without changing the old cylinder, which, if specified correctly will be flush with the edge of the handle, and so need a protrusion to cover it. For new doors, this is not a concern, so I suppose one should offer both, as Lift and Lock do. This is good.

[workstation]

2)

It's hard to tell, but it looks as if this escutcheon has concealed screws using the principle I was talking about:

http://www.abus.de/us/main.asp?ScreenLa ... 3318036736

Although it looks as if the outer plate slides over the whole inner plate, which is not really suitable for an handle. You see the principle, though.

[badema75]

Hello, here are my answers:

1)
Standard is that the cylinder is (close to) flush with the outside-plate. Usually the inside plate is thinner, so the cylinder wil protrude a little. No big deal.

2)
Matter of brand/design. Hoppe has some nice plates with loose covers

3)
In the Netherlands thumbturns are not allowed at higher security levels. a small hole in the glass will let the burglar open the door.

4)
In the earlier days, we had doctor-locks. These were switchable between a front-door operation and a normal lever operation. These were used by doctors, when the had is patient-hours, he would set the lever-function. So, every patient could enter. When he was away, he would switch it to frontdoor use.

5)
Here most double doors have one passive and one active door. Active door is a normal door. Passive door is normally closed with a boltwork. Normally you use only one door. Double door opening is only, when large objects are moved through those doors.

Bart[/quote]

[workstation]

1)
Standard is that the cylinder is (close to) flush with the outside-plate. Usually the inside plate is thinner, so the cylinder wil protrude a little. No big deal.

Yes, but I was referring to the exterior side. Also the interior should be flush. If it isn't, you have bought the wrong size cylinder.

2)
Matter of brand/design. Hoppe has some nice plates with loose covers

Referring to these? :

http://www.hoppe.co.uk/Portals/6/Conten ... handle.pdf

Yes, they look OK. Thanks.

3)
In the Netherlands thumbturns are not allowed at higher security levels. a small hole in the glass will let the burglar open the door.

I think you've missed the point a little. I mean as an additional feature.

4)
In the earlier days, we had doctor-locks. These were switchable between a front-door operation and a normal lever operation. These were used by doctors, when the had is patient-hours, he would set the lever-function. So, every patient could enter. When he was away, he would switch it to frontdoor use.

This sounds very interesting. Presumably these were not multipoint? Are there any pictures on the internet?

5)
Here most double doors have one passive and one active door. Active door is a normal door. Passive door is normally closed with a boltwork. Normally you use only one door. Double door opening is only, when large objects are moved through those doors.

Reasonable point. I don't really mind bolts you have to reach for. It's handles with pointless, stupid lock cylinders that offend me.

[79commando]

The bolt work that locks the passive door is internal to the door and activated by lifting the handles. You then turn the cylinder to lock the bolt work in the locking position. That's why you have two cylinders.

[workstation]

Yes, I know how it works.
I just think it's ridiculous.

[79commando]

Try not to get too worked up about it. The current system works very well and when fitted to the door looks symetrical and in keeping with the size of doors. If you carried out a poll I think you would find the majority like the current system; it's just human nature that you can't please everyone.

[79commando]

Try not to get too worked up about it. The current system works very well and when fitted to the door looks symetrical and in keeping with the size of doors. If you carried out a poll I think you would find the majority like the current system; it's just human nature that you can't please everyone. If you find these things stupid don't go into locksmithing for a career as it will seriously frustrate you.

[panalman]

It's handles with pointless, stupid lock cylinders that offend me.[/quote]

Yes I agree. The mole has been tested and withstood a very intense attack.

So did this break secure these guys really f****d the MPL on this door!!


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dkBEiZTkX4M

[ponsaloti]

Class video.
Yes, cut the screw and watch the door fall open .
I think the vid gives to much justice to the cyl, are the pair of divies trying to make a sales video.