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Binding Pins

Having read the FAQ's you are still unfulfilled and seek more enlightenment, so post your general lock picking questions here.
Forum rules
Do not post safe related questions in this sub forum! Post them in This Old Safe

The sub forum you are currently in is for asking Beginner Hobby Lock Picking questions only.

Binding Pins

Postby Gelmar » 18 Jan 2008 0:14

I have an interesting problem...well interesting to me. I have a 5-pin tumbler practice lock which has a 90 degree cutaway section. I have noticed with this lock that using the bogota rake I can get it openwith a combination of raking and pushing on select pins with the tip. I however can not for the life of me get it to open with spp. I have noticed that 3 pins will appear to be binding and then the 2 and 3 pins ( coming from the front of the lock) will maintain springyness. All the other pins in the lock appear to be set.

My question is therefore, can more than 1 pin be binding at a time? Are some locks impossible to spp due to this happening? I'm not exactly sure what is happening in the lock if someone can offer some insight I would love to understand whats going on, because right now I'm a little confused and put out with it having responded to raking so much better than spp.
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Postby zsoutendijk » 18 Jan 2008 9:42

this happens to me with my cutaway... if the back screw thing that keeps the cylindar in place is too tight then you cant turn the cylindar easy enough with a tension wrench.

loosen the screw and see what happens.

the only other reason that i can think of is if the lock is made incorrectly and some of the holes are drilled off center, in that case you must pick the pins in a certain order.

hope this helped

Good Luck!

-Zack
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Postby dmux » 18 Jan 2008 12:48

proof that sometimes you have to rake to open a lock rather than SPP
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Postby le.nutzman » 18 Jan 2008 12:58

If two or three pins are binding at once, i'd definitely have to say that you're using too much tension all the way around, even with your bogata. The bogata by design and principle, wasn't meant to be used as a rake and also is by design meant for keyways with a certain pin spacing, see Lockpicks - Manual, Sticky Rai's Bogata How-To, pg 6 as follows:

When using the pick, do NOT use a raking motion. Place the pick in the lock so that all pins are engaged by the ridges and valleys of the pick, and use a rapid rocking motion combined with a very small forward and back movement of the pick. While doing this, use a VERY LIGHT tension and a consistent bouncing of that VERY LIGHT tension. Sometimes I use a very rapid bouncing of tension if the lock doesn't open right away. The faster you can jiggle the pick in a controlled manner and bounce the tension to match the pick movement, the faster you'll open the lock. This is from my personal experience, and I must say that once you get the hang of it the picks work like magic!


(Rai kick me if i've interpreted referenced posting wrgon in any way). Not saying it won't work on every lock you use it on, but saying that with some keyways and pin spacings, you'll find it more difficult than others.

That being said, I don't know if your bogata is one of Rai's or a homebrew of your own design.

As far as your tensioning issue goes, slip into Pick-Fu and check out my recent posts on a homemade weighted tension wrench and the concept behind it. It really sounds like you're just using too much tension for that lock. A good way to determine this is to visually inspect the plug movement after placing the tension wrench at the top of the keyway and letting it hang naturally. If the plug barely moves but there's still a bit more it can move, it's a tight plug and you need to up the tension just a bit. But if it moves freely all the way to a stop and can't move any further, then barely the weight of your finger is all it's going to take.
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Postby le.nutzman » 18 Jan 2008 12:59

Just for clarification, that quoted part was actually made by pinsetter, and acknowledged by Rai himself just a few posts later on the same page.
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Re: Binding Pins

Postby LeeNo » 18 Jan 2008 21:58

Gelmar wrote:My question is therefore, can more than 1 pin be binding at a time? Are some locks impossible to spp due to this happening?
In theory, it is possible. But the odds of it actually happening is like infinitely against it. Why? Because the setting plane of the pins is analog - meaning that there is an infinite range of possibilities concerning which pinstack's hole is closer to the wall of the shell (in regards to the rotation of the plug). This means that one stack will be closer and, therefore, the binding stack.

There are many locks that can be SPP but not raked. But there are no locks that can be raked but not SPP.

I am guessing that you have gotten so good at raking this lock open that your initial failure at SPP has thrown you off.

There is nothing a rake can do that your hook or diamond can't do.
<sig>
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Postby LeeNo » 18 Jan 2008 22:05

(Sorry for the double-post! I thought of this just after I submitted my previous post)

One thing that can happen while SPP that can really mess you up is oversetting the front pins when they aren't the binding pins.

If you are raking by inserting the rake with no tension and then ripping it out and quickly applying tension then there is a good chance that the horizontal plane you held your rake didn't prematurely set any of the front pins.

But when you are poking around the lock with a hook or diamond, you could be accidentally setting the front pins while you are working on other pins.

That could make it seem like SPP just doesn't work for that lock.

Also, some security pins could be simply overcome by raking but could present a major blockage to SPP.
<sig>
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Postby Gelmar » 23 Jan 2008 7:12

Thanks everyone for all the advice it really helps me out!
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Postby dougfarre » 23 Jan 2008 9:40

Gelmar you live in Austin?
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Have questions about Locksport International? -> doug@locksport.com
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Postby Gelmar » 23 Jan 2008 20:37

Yes I do!
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Postby FFVison » 24 Jan 2008 18:28

I remember reading somewhere on the Internet (the page had some guy in army fatigues) some guide for picking in general. It was a good read. I remember reading a section of the page that when you are dealing with tension in the lock, the tension could be enough that the pins not only bind, they flex somewhat and allow other pins to bind. I wonder if this is what is happening here. Perhaps there is a bit too much pressure and more than 1 pin is binding at once. Does anyone have the link to that page? I recommend it as a pretty good read.
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