Tiger Team (TV series) - organizations security testing

[raimundo]

Social engineering was a buzzword with college deans in the late 60's and early 70's, In fact when a dean met a student to speak about anything in those days, it was called social engineering. the buzz word probably went back to another business like madison avenue. Or it could have come from some pop psych book of the time.

[Beyond]

Social engineering was a buzzword with college deans in the late 60's and early 70's, In fact when a dean met a student to speak about anything in those days, it was called social engineering. the buzz word probably went back to another business like madison avenue. Or it could have come from some pop psych book of the time.

Anecdotal.

[Squelchtone]

I caught all kinds of stuff like and when I tried to point them out on this board, no one could come up with any substantial counter points besides: they know what they're doing , it's not meant for people as critical as I was, etc.

Oh well, glad they aren't picking it up. It was an atrocious show.

Not only are you critical, you seem to always have a counter point to everything anyone here says. We're all entitled to various opinions, even you, but you could try a little restraint and not immediately snap back at every reply and thread on here. No one on here is out to get you, because you are a part of our community and I believe you do know your stuff when it comes to locks and locksmithing, but you do tend to be very defensive about things people say. If you can dish it out, they have that right too, so you have to take it without making further points or claims, or poking holes through their logic, etc.

As far as True TV not picking up this show, I haven't heard this news yet, so I'm glad you posted that, and I for one enjoy it for the entertainment value of the content, versus watching the other reality style shows such as the biggest loser, or that stupid one where they build poor people a brand new house because they have a boo-hoo story.

I suppose if you thought that show was atrocious, you could always just not watch it or change the channel. That's the great thing about being free willed individuals.

Let's get on point and have more good discussions about locks, safes, and security, and not all of this back and fourth bickering, busting on other peoples opinions, dissecting posts line by line and all this infighting.

Locksport Community Unite!

Squelchtone

[raimundo]

I found the comment 'anecdotal' acurate. I was not speaking in statistics, but I believe that if either of us took the time to look it up in some book of etomology, we could find the phrase. An anecdote is a remembered story. I don't take that as criticism neither does it dispute the truth of the ancdote.

[Squelchtone]

I found the comment 'anecdotal' acurate. I was not speaking in statistics, but I believe that if either of us took the time to look it up in some book of etomology, we could find the phrase. An anecdote is a remembered story. I don't take that as criticism neither does it dispute the truth of the ancdote.

You're right rai, I should keep that college dictionary out on my desk, but I do believe it was an unnecessary post which did not contribute anything in either direction: positive or negative. just.. a reply for no real good reason.

Thanks for the clear up and proper definition.

[Beyond]

Not only are you critical, you seem to always have a counter point to everything anyone here says. We're all entitled to various opinions, even you, but you could try a little restraint and not immediately snap back at every reply and thread on here. No one on here is out to get you, because you are a part of our community and I believe you do know your stuff when it comes to locks and locksmithing, but you do tend to be very defensive about things people say. If you can dish it out, they have that right too, so you have to take it without making further points or claims, or poking holes through their logic, etc.

I'm just looking to gain better understanding. If you look in "General Chatter" in the Hacking vs Lockpicking thread, you'll see I just want to fully understand everyone's side. In fact, I even changed my view, somewhat, on the topic at hand.

Nothings conveyed with ill-intent from my side.

I suppose if you thought that show was atrocious, you could always just not watch it or change the channel. That's the great thing about being free willed individuals.

But what kind of person would I be if I commented without first giving it a chance?

[Legion303]

Since the term was coined before Kevin was born, I invite you to share his secret of time travel.

-steve

Can you show me proof of this?

This NY Times article from 1899 should do the trick: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.h ... 94689ED7CF

Tolman himself seems to have appropriated the phrase from someone else prior to the publication of his book on sociology some 20-30 years before the article, but I can't find confirmation of that.

If you want to quibble about how the phrase was used (aside from the fact that I just gave you proof that Kevin didn't coin it), here are Kevin's own words from the Preface of _The Art of Deception_:

My first encounter with what I would eventually learn to call social engineering
came about during my high school years when I met another student who was
caught up in a hobby called phone phreaking.

(Emphasis mine.)

-steve

[Beyond]

I stand corrected then.

[Beyond]

Actually, never mind, no I don't.

I never said he invented it and coining a term means to brings a new meaning to an already existing word. In other words, the social engineering of today (manipulation for devious purposes, or not, etc.) is not what was described in that article.

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary. ... n+the+term

And there is no doubt that he made the term popular. It's hard not to find a recent article mentioning it without his name popping up.

Then again, I'm not a big fan of his, you're the one quoting his book. I've yet to buy one for myself or read anymore than what was posted on his website. I just thought it was cute the Tiger Team kept ranting about it as if it was theirs.

[Beyond]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_eng ... r_security)

Quoting Wikipedia:

Social engineering is a collection of techniques used to manipulate people into performing actions or divulging confidential information.[1] While similar to a confidence trick or simple fraud, the term typically applies to trickery for information gathering or computer system access and in most cases the attacker never comes face-to-face with the victim.

Mitnick may have "learned to call" the term social engineering but I'll have to see something showing the definition as we know it existing before his time. There's no doubt that it's meaning has changed over the past 10-20 years because of his influence.

Another quote:

Reformed computer criminal and security consultant Kevin Mitnick popularized the term social engineering, pointing out that it's much easier to trick someone into giving you his or her password for a system than to spend the effort to hack in.[1]

That quote is actually from a CSEPS Course Workbook but it serves to show an independent opinion that supports my belief that he popularized it.

[Legion303]

Blah, blah, blah.

I've given you "prior art" and Kevin's own words. Do you want me to ask him who he got the phrase from as well? Or do you think you can put some of that extra time and energy into using google?

-steve

[raimundo]

Social engineering was a hacking technique and called that before the world ever heard of kevin mitnik. His use of the term is the modern meaning, and perhaps he popularized it outside the hacking communities, as that is where his fame grew after the fbi and that guy in california, published their books about chasing kevin. But social engineering as a term about using peoples gullability to learn about computers was around before Mitnik started using computers. It goes back to the early hackers who were both MIT students working with computers and phone phreaks.

[Legion303]

Mitnick may have "learned to call" the term social engineering but I'll have to see something showing the definition as we know it existing before his time. There's no doubt that it's meaning has changed over the past 10-20 years because of his influence.

Oh? Tell you what, then, since you keep changing your standards of what you'll accept as proof ("Anecdotal!" "Not how he used it!" "He didn't mean what he said!" etc.), let's pin this down. What do you consider "before his time"? As you conveniently gave me a timeframe of 10-20 years, would you accept common usage of the phrase prior to 1988? Because I know for a fact that phreaker BBSs had entire sections devoted to the topic before then.

-steve

[Beyond]

Mitnick may have "learned to call" the term social engineering but I'll have to see something showing the definition as we know it existing before his time. There's no doubt that it's meaning has changed over the past 10-20 years because of his influence.

Oh? Tell you what, then, since you keep changing your standards of what you'll accept as proof ("Anecdotal!" "Not how he used it!" "He didn't mean what he said!" etc.), let's pin this down. What do you consider "before his time"? As you conveniently gave me a timeframe of 10-20 years, would you accept common usage of the phrase prior to 1988? Because I know for a fact that phreaker BBSs had entire sections devoted to the topic before then.

-steve

Anytime before 1975, when Kevin purported his first exploit via it and it would still have to adhere to the current definition because anything different wouldn't matter, per my definition of "coined the term".

[Beyond]

Social engineering was a hacking technique and called that before the world ever heard of kevin mitnik. His use of the term is the modern meaning

Haha, then it would directly adhere to the definition of coining the term. See link above.

and perhaps he popularized it outside the hacking communities, as that is where his fame grew after the fbi and that guy in california, published their books about chasing kevin. But social engineering as a term about using peoples gullability to learn about computers was around before Mitnik started using computers. It goes back to the early hackers who were both MIT students working with computers and phone phreaks.

I tell you what, I won't render a judgment on that being anecdotal or not. I'll allow both you and legion the opportunity to prove that statement before I say anything about it.

You could be right and you might be right.