Upside down mounted locks in UPVC doors

[nonzero]

I'm still a newcomer to lockpicking but I've opened a few regular doors (ie. wooden ones with locks with the pins on the top) and I've recently turned my attention to the locks that come in the door above.

They are mounted upside down (the pins are on the bottom) and I can't seem to pick it.

One of the things that I am wondering is that when this lock is raked with a small amount of tension what is there stopping the key pin from falling into the driver pin hole and stopping the barrel from turning? In a standard lock gravity is with you and the key pin falls down into the barrel.

Any ideas or tips?

[Chucklz]

What keeps the bottom pins from falling in is of course, the top pins (well they are on the bottom in this case, and the pins on the top are really bottom pins....... boy is that confusing).

[toomush2drink]

This type of lock is called a euro profile or euro cylinder. Its the same as a normal cylinder in principle but upside down, its the springs that keeep the pins up. To be honest i have problems with these to and generally find yales easier even though they have anti pick pins. With a cylinder the other way up its a lot easier to tell if you have set a pin as it feels "loose" when lifted with a pick. Sometimes you will find that raking is successful with these depending on the brand. Some are a complete nightmare like evva and gegge so beware and others like mila are ok. Some when picked wont allow you to open the door if a key is present in the other side but this can be overcome by inserting a wiper blade into the back of the lock to take control of the lock.

Some examples can be seen here of high security versions ( banham)
http://www.lockcentre.com/products1.cfm

[pinky]

these locks pick no different to everyday rim cylinder locks, some will pick easily and some are more challenging, it will depend on the make, the shape of the keyway, whether it has anti pick pins etc just as a rim cylinder.

if its a gege, evva , corbin or iseo its going to be much harder than a contract brand.

an electric pick gun defeats them with ease, hand picking times depend purely on the skil level of the picker.

what make of euro profile cylinder do you struggle with , there are little tricks that defeat some makes, ie , union seem to open with intense tension and firm raking with a wave or half diamond pick in about 2 rakes.

[nonzero]

Hmmm.....Would taking a standard lock, mounting it upside down and picking it have a similar feel to these locks?

They seem to be a right pain to pick - also the locking mechanism locks into the door frame at 5 seperate points and the barrel has to spin through a full 360 before it opens.

[toomush2drink]

Dont worry about the multi locking mechanism as its operated by the barrel you are picking.
Use a plug spinner to get it through to 360 degrees.
Like pinky says they all vary and i must admit i do prefer a pick gun on these.

[pinky]

dont be concerned with the multi point locking system, as you only have to beat one lock to open the lot, normaly it is only necessary to turn the barrel to 270 degrees three quarters of the way round to open , this should allow you to drop the handle and release the multi point locking, some however work on a cog system and you need to unwind the bolt, if so use a plug spinner to take it past the 360 degree position and keep going.

at the end of the day it is still just a pin tumbler and will pick, raking and pick gun seem to be the quickest methods of opening these, though if a fixed handle or a thumb turn then the letterbox kit is a quick opening.

[nonzero]

though if a fixed handle or a thumb turn then the letterbox kit is a quick opening

Care to elucidate upon what a fixed handle, thumb turn and letterbox kit are? New vocab to me - Thanks

[pinky]

ok , many upvc locks are a double keyway, ie , lock both sides of the door, due to fire regulations many are now thumb turn cylinders which are lock on outside and thunb turn on the inside of the door( ie a knob you turn to unlock the door no key required on the inside) , most upvc doors have a handle that you lift to deadlock and drop to release, a fixed handle is normaly square but comes in other shapes, it is static it doesnt lift nor does it drop, they key draws back the latch and you push or pull the door, people get lazy if they have a fixed handle, they shut the door and it is locked they should turn the key to double lock but dont, they leave the door on the latch, the internal handle is a fire exit handle and opens the door.
the letterbox kit is a tool that allows you to go through the letterbox and turn a thumb turn open an internal handle remove a key as well as other uses.

[nonzero]

Thank you very much for clearing that up. I'm still fairly new to lockpicking and am picking up the terminology as I go.