Why don't locksmiths design locks?

[amehel0]

i am locksmith and i am in the middle of designing a 2-3 stage bolt on a lever lock. it is goin on a safe i got for free. i will make the levers as well. main reason why locksmiths dont is becauese companys like lockwood bilock medeco etc. have there own designers and dont hire locksmiths.

[gstrendkill]

really if you think about it, if a locksmith designed a lock to be so perfect as to be "pick proof" he would go out of business quickly now wouldn't he?

[SnowyBoy]

really if you think about it, if a locksmith designed a lock to be so perfect as to be "pick proof" he would go out of business quickly now wouldn't he?

Not necessarily, Locksmiths don't ALWAYS bypass/pick locks to gain entry. If its a lock that is not worth the time trying to bypass (read Abloy disc locks) then he will find another entry method.

[gstrendkill]

really if you think about it, if a locksmith designed a lock to be so perfect as to be "pick proof" he would go out of business quickly now wouldn't he?

Not necessarily, Locksmiths don't ALWAYS bypass/pick locks to gain entry. If its a lock that is not worth the time trying to bypass (read Abloy disc locks) then he will find another entry method.

agreed but i was just saying

[SnowyBoy]

really if you think about it, if a locksmith designed a lock to be so perfect as to be "pick proof" he would go out of business quickly now wouldn't he?

Not necessarily, Locksmiths don't ALWAYS bypass/pick locks to gain entry. If its a lock that is not worth the time trying to bypass (read Abloy disc locks) then he will find another entry method.

agreed but i was just saying

So was I

This is a discussion, not an argument

(Have to emphasize that sometimes on forums......was just putting it out there)

[Safety0ff]

really if you think about it, if a locksmith designed a lock to be so perfect as to be "pick proof" he would go out of business quickly now wouldn't he?

You can design a mechanicaly perfect lock/safe but you cannot build one due to machining/engineering tolerances.

[dougfarre]

really if you think about it, if a locksmith designed a lock to be so perfect as to be "pick proof" he would go out of business quickly now wouldn't he?

You can design a mechanicaly perfect lock/safe but you cannot build one due to machining/engineering tolerances.

Thats not true. You think weapon designers were like "well, we could have built a ultra precise missile guidance system, but due to mechanical and engineering tolerances, we decided that +- 50 feet was good enough." For some cases maybe. Perfection exists in many forms. And if it doesn't there are tons of locks that simply can't be picked, and can't be bypassed.

[Safety0ff]

Thats not true. You think weapon designers were like "well, we could have built a ultra precise missile guidance system, but due to mechanical and engineering tolerances, we decided that +- 50 feet was good enough."

Uh, yes I do. Tolerances are all calculated. Here's an example: The new m777 howitzer is accurate to +-10 meters of it's target which is 32.8 feet.

For some cases maybe.

For every case where the engineer was following proper guidelines reguarding tolerances...

Perfection exists in many forms. And if it doesn't there are tons of locks that simply can't be picked, and can't be bypassed.

I agree, the lock achieves perfection if it fulfill the criteria it was designed for. I was talking about mechanical perfection. In the sens of accuracy of +-0.00000000. Which according to chaos theory is impossible. Causes of inacurracies are the metal expanding due to heat while cutting. The cutting tool wearing from the start of the cut to the end of the cut. Etc.

[Safety0ff]

Also...
-Locksmith would not be out of work because of human error (e.g. Lock outs)
-You'd have to account for tolerances for key wear
-The adoption rate of a such lock would most likely be quite slow especially if the costs of production are high, leaving many vulnerable locks in use.
-You'd still need a locksmith to re-pin the lock.

Electronic locks using rolling code encryption also account for tolerances (generally they accept 256 futures codes from the present one to prevent the remote being out of sync.)

There's also economic viability. The point I was trying to make was that there's quite a bit more to producing a lock than a perfect design on a drawing board.

I'm sorry if I was being a little too anal . Lol. Even if you see the holes in my arguments I hope you understand what I meant.

I suppose if a lock was manipulation proof the locksmith might consider changing lines of work such as: replacing doors, windows, brick walls .

[Beyond]

really if you think about it, if a locksmith designed a lock to be so perfect as to be "pick proof" he would go out of business quickly now wouldn't he?

Not necessarily, Locksmiths don't ALWAYS bypass/pick locks to gain entry. If its a lock that is not worth the time trying to bypass (read Abloy disc locks) then he will find another entry method.

Wouldn't bypassing be considered "another entry method"? I mean, you can bypass a lock by drilling it or by hoping through an opened window.

[Safety0ff]

I've been playing around with a lock concept in my head for about a month and I think it's time to share. I don't know if it already exist in some for or another. Here goes:

The key:
Think of a corkscrew with pin-in-pin dimples on the outter surface and a threaded rod (think of a small diameter bolt) going down the center. It might also be possible to protect it with patents for key control, not like any current key cutting machines would be able to acurately position cut on a such key.

The plug:
The size of the plug would be greater than most existing lock to accomodate the corkscrew design. It would have one opening for the key and a (threaded think of a nut) hole in the middle. It would have holes drilled into it radialy to the dept of the corkscrew key way to allow the pins to drop into the plug and interact with the key. The threaded rod of the key interacts with the hole in the plug so that the key is perpendicular ( in 2 axis) to the face of the plug (think of a nut and a bolt.) The whole purpose of the rod is to make inserting and rotating the key easier, smoother and less likely to break the key.

As an added security measure, since the plug is bigger than normal you could add an anti drill countermesure before the first pin stack as well as in the lock housing.

Pins:
Pin-in-pin (think Mul-T-Lock,) but while we`re at it added in M_ch__d attack countermeasures.

Notes on this design:
The keyway would have to be cast and not cut, the rest is machined normaly. The key would have to be quite strong to prevent deformation when turning the plug, the rotation could be actioned by the tip of the key against the end of the keyway or by a stopper (equivalent to a shoulder on a key) on the face of the plug.

I don't think you could bump, pick, drill (if you put in drilling countermeasures) or manipulate this hypothetical lock.

It might work if you could manufacture it with pretty tight tolerances.

As a concept what do you guys think?

[Safety0ff]

On second thought a non-threaded hole and rod with bevels would probably be fine as the threads per inch of rod would probably be less that one.

[mh]

Would that be a key that's screwed into the lock?

Cheers,
mh

[Safety0ff]

Would that be a key that's screwed into the lock?

Precisely.

[SnowyBoy]

I know exactly where you're coming from safety off

You could have the corkscrew part of the key free to rotate on the handle so you could literally push the corkscrew into the key way then when the handle gets close to the cylinder and the key is fully inserted it could have some sort of raised ledge/little legs that lock in to the cylinder to rotate.

Then to remove its just a case of pulling the corkscrew out with the cylinder being sprung, it would be reset.