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The "Pick Proof" Tubular Lock $500 Bet

Information about locks themselves. Questions, tips and lock diagram information should be posted here.

The "Pick Proof" Tubular Lock $500 Bet

Postby jedidove » 21 Mar 2008 0:17

So, my dad tells me today he got a self storage space. While discussing the security of the storage with the manager he mentioned that I could pick most common locks with relative ease. The manager laughs and tells him that they have pick proof locks. I asked my dad what type of lock they used. All he could tell me was that it was a chapman lock (that's what my dad always calls tubular locks). At first I thought he might be mistaken and the lock might be a disc tumbler lock but he seemed convinced it was a chapman lock.

Later in the day we had to stop by the storage place. The manager tells me that their locks are pick proof. Right away I can tell he probably doesn't know what he's talking about since he seems so confident that their locks are IMPOSSIBLE to pick and anyone in the physical security industry should know that no lock is absolutely impossible to pick. I brush it off, at this point I'm just interested to see the lock. He then mentions that a guy lost $500 dollars in a bet that he could pick the lock. Then he adds "and HE was a locksmith". Finally he says "So whenever you feel like giving me money, feel free" or something like that.

Now I was just annoyed. I walked in, never said anything to this manager, never even said I could pick locks nor asked about the security of their institution. But this guy just had to be arrogant and try to put himself above me. Once again, I brush it off.

So he hands my dad the keys and we head to our space. I take a look at the keys...my dad was right...plain old run of the mill tubular lock key. We get to the storage space, plain old run of the mill 7 pin tubular lock. At this point I'm just saying "wow". I can't seem to find any added security. Now all I can think about is this being an excuse to finally buy a tubular lock pick, learn how to use it, and cut this guy down to size.
I did a little research on the lock. Its made by a brand called LAI. They claim to have pick proof* locks. Following the * leads to a statement saying that it only applies to the "600 series" (aka their disc tumbler locks). Everything seems run of the mill including their website.

But then it finally hits me, these locks have an "overlock" system. Basically, by putting a different key in and "turning it 90 degrees" you lock out the system. It doesn't disengage the lock but it stops the tenant from getting in (useful if they failed to pay bill, etc.). The only diagram I find on the site shows the internals of a standard tubular lock. But I'm trying to figure out how this overlock system works, and further, I'm wondering if it would prevent or resist a normal attack. Maybe it uses an extra sheer line or something? I have no clue. The company and the lock don't seem very sophisticated but maybe some simple feature could add security.

I don't quite buy the whole locksmith failing to pick the lock story, unless he tried picking it with normal tools and just got stuck with the constant resets every 1/7 of a turn. But, how does this lock work? I'm not concerned with the security of the storage, no three letter agency is coming after my family and wants to steal our furniture. I'm just interested to see what this lock is about.

Once again the company is LAI. It's their tubular lock, one they call the stop/go enforcer, or sometimes just the enforcer or the 500 series. It is not their disc tumbler lock though.

Links:
http://www.laigroup.com/lockbook2007/lockbook2007_20-21.html
http://www.laigroup.com/ocat/storage/pg9.htm
http://www.laigroup.com/ocat/storage/pg10.htm
http://www.laigroup.com/ocat/storage/pg11.htm

Google can't find much on these guys...

Thanks for reading my long thread. This thing is just killing me.
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Postby reenignE » 21 Mar 2008 0:28

Well, from what I can decipher, it seems like it's just a regular tubular lock. Doesn't look like anything is too special on it...

As for the "overlock"

I'd assume that it works similarly to a master key, but only for 90 degrees of the 360 that you need to unlock it. I can't be sure without looking at it though.

If you're trying to pick it, and you accidentally put it into "overlock" then just reset it, and try again. I wouldn't recommend trying this without a tubular pick, and some know how though...
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Postby mh » 21 Mar 2008 0:39

Could it be as simple as a tubular key that can be removed at other angles than the normal key and the normal key would therefore simple be inserted at the wrong angle?

Cheers,
mh
"The techs discovered that German locks were particularly difficult" - Robert Wallace, H. Keith Melton w. Henry R. Schlesinger, Spycraft: The secret history of the CIA's spytechs from communism to Al-Qaeda (New York: Dutton, 2008), p. 210
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Postby jedidove » 21 Mar 2008 8:46

Yeah that's my guess. If I do get a tubular pick (that St. Patrick's discount is luring me to) and give it a go I'll be sure to post the results. Post any more info if found.
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Postby SnowyBoy » 21 Mar 2008 11:27

I'd say that has two discs in it with more than 2 pins in the stacks.

Two sheers lines because of the two discs, & 3 pins in each stack. In lock out position, using the standard key wouldn't set the pins to the sheer to allow you to turn it back to standard locked position.

The man who says that is pick proof needs to be put straight on a few things though lol
What a load of old BiLocks!!!!

I'm probably 0 for 400 in looking for safes behind wall paintings
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Postby maxxed » 21 Mar 2008 11:48

The overlock is only available in the longer locks, so it would seem that extra length required for extra shear line and pins makes sense.
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Postby linty » 21 Mar 2008 12:52

easiest way to accomplish that would be to grind off the little guide-bit-thingy from the end of a key, voila, you have a special key that can turn the lock 90 degrees and still be removed, effectively locking out a key that hasn't been similarly modified.
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Postby vitti » 22 Mar 2008 5:05

says it has 21 pins. So it seems Snowy may have hit it on the head.
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Postby SnowyBoy » 22 Mar 2008 6:58

vitti wrote:says it has 21 pins. So it seems Snowy may have hit it on the head.


Makes sense then if it has 7 pin stacks, 3 in a stack, that's 21 :D
What a load of old BiLocks!!!!

I'm probably 0 for 400 in looking for safes behind wall paintings
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Postby reenignE » 22 Mar 2008 13:22

My 2cents....

Get a 7 pin tubular pick

go to your storage unit and practice without the manager watching

take the $500 bet, hell the manager seems confident, make it $1000 :P

donate the money to Zeke

http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?t=31774
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Postby jedidove » 22 Mar 2008 19:05

SnowyBoy wrote:I'd say that has two discs in it with more than 2 pins in the stacks.

Two sheers lines because of the two discs, & 3 pins in each stack. In lock out position, using the standard key wouldn't set the pins to the sheer to allow you to turn it back to standard locked position.

The man who says that is pick proof needs to be put straight on a few things though lol


This was my first assumption. I figured it would also make the lock a little less susceptible to a quick impression with a tubular lock pick, a kind of low grade tubular SFIC if you will. It also seemed interesting that the overlock model cannot be master keyed. I figured this was because it already had extra pins for the overlock and the simplicity and cost of the lock didn't make it reasonable to add additional master wafers.

Vitti, where did you see anything about 21 pins? That would basically prove the dual sheer line hypothesis. But I can't find anything that states 21 pins.

Anyone have any experience with the standard (Southard?) tubular pick from lockpickshop? I'm itching to buy the tubular pick just to try it out on my space's lock. Can't bring myself to do it though. I'm too busy going through DB's guide to relearn/hone my pick fu, and after I finish learning I want to dish out some money for more locks. All I have now is a kwickset (complete joke) and a schlage w/ 4 spools.

I could keep practicing on the schlage forever and learn a lot but I feel I need variety if I really want to be a good lockpicker. Not to mention, I busted a few springs on pinning messups and now I have exactly 5 springs between both cylinders, only letting me pin one at a time. I HATE repinning top pins. In my opinion more locks would be a better investment at this point in my picking life.
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Postby vitti » 23 Mar 2008 0:11

well I guess you got me there... I confused my reading on them. But, the only other tubular locks with this overlock feature I could find do state that they have 21 pins.

this one

and

this one click the image and read the back of the package.
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Postby TOWCH » 23 Mar 2008 3:14

If you bet him money get him to put the money on the counter. People are less likely to welch if losing the bet involves standing there while someone picks up the prize. Also: sneak in before hand just in case and agree on the lock to be picked in advance. Make sure it's the one you've practiced on. Then wiggle the pick: set a probe with the decoder, wiggle the pick, set a pick with the decoder, ect.

Rig the bet. The guy is a born sucker. Make sure you show up with money in hand. :wink: Can't make a bet if you don't bring your share. Also makes it easier to get money on the table.

Ethically speaking: you DID pick the lock.
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Postby Safety0ff » 23 Mar 2008 3:24

Sorry if this was mentioned before, but pick it on your own, tighten up your pick, make bet, use pick as a key.
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Postby jedidove » 23 Mar 2008 13:18

Lol at SafetyOff, I thought of the same thing. But seriously, if I do decide to buy a tubular pick and take the bet (provided I already practiced of course) it would have to be fair and square. I'm not about to lower my standards to trick someone, even if they deserve it. Hypothetically, even if I picked every LAI tubular lock that existed in a few seconds I wouldn't jump into the bet.

I can tell this guy is cheap and the first thing he would say when I won would be "Well your 17 so you can't legally gamble" or some other bs and refuse to pay. I could sit here and come up with all sorts of workarounds and tricks but in the end the money isn't worth the trouble. If I decided to do anything it would be to tell him I'll prove the locks aren't pick proof with no bet. That way I don't give him the satisfaction of refusing to pay, while showing him he's full of crap and could have been tricked out of money by a 17 year old, who didn't even bother to. I'd just say "If you ever get locked out of a space and feel like spending some money let me know".
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