Evidence of Picking - Forensic?

[Stormseye]

Hi all,

I'm new here, and I don't really know much about lock picking, but I wondered if someone could possibly answer a question or three.

I'm working on a report that involves a hypothetical break in. My initial idea was to have the intruder pick the lock. I've read on your forums that most intruders would breach entry rather than pick the lock, but I want this intruder to avoid leaving much evidence of the actual entry, so I want to avoid breaching. But, speed is also an issue. It is a normal, front door style deadbolt lock. So, here are my questions:

1. For a professional, how long might an average pick job take? You see on TV (NCIS, etc) that it can be done in a matter of seconds, but is that just fiction?
2. Would it be silent to someone on the inside?
3. Would it leave evidence on the lock? Would the evidence be visible to the naked eye on the exterior, or is the lock dismantled and sent to a lab?

Thanks in advance so much for your help.

[freakparade3]

This thread had been moved to the moderator area for discussion on what to do with it. It was decided to move it back and monitor the discussion. We ask all members use common sense when answering these questions. You all know the rules, if they are followed we can have this conversation here, in the public area. If it gets to advanced, it will be moved.

Freakparade3

[mh]

1. For a professional, how long might an average pick job take? You see on TV (NCIS, etc) that it can be done in a matter of seconds, but is that just fiction?
2. Would it be silent to someone on the inside?
3. Would it leave evidence on the lock? Would the evidence be visible to the naked eye on the exterior, or is the lock dismantled and sent to a lab?

Thanks in advance so much for your help.

1. depends on the lock, seconds is possible on some
2. comparable to using the correct key
3. usually yes, but not to the naked eye - picking tools leave scratches where keys don't.

Cheers,
mh

[patrick181]

Hi all,

I'm new here, and I don't really know much about lock picking, but I wondered if someone could possibly answer a question or three.

I'm working on a report that involves a hypothetical break in. My initial idea was to have the intruder pick the lock. I've read on your forums that most intruders would breach entry rather than pick the lock, but I want this intruder to avoid leaving much evidence of the actual entry, so I want to avoid breaching. But, speed is also an issue. It is a normal, front door style deadbolt lock. So, here are my questions:

1. For a professional, how long might an average pick job take? You see on TV (NCIS, etc) that it can be done in a matter of seconds, but is that just fiction?
2. Would it be silent to someone on the inside?
3. Would it leave evidence on the lock? Would the evidence be visible to the naked eye on the exterior, or is the lock dismantled and sent to a lab?

Thanks in advance so much for your help.

Thats some brutally specific questions for a "Report"

[dougfarre]

1) I would have to say the kind of lockpicking you see on TV in in the movies is not the best representation of how long it takes to pick most locks. Most people can't just walk up to a lock they have never picked before and pick it in a few seconds. Although the majority of the locks that are sold, especially in the US, are very low security, and picking them is no great feat, it would take longer then "just a few seconds." I would say a few minuets.

2) Whether or not somone behind the door can hear your picking attempts depends on on the tools you use, your technique, the lock, the way the lock is mounted, the type of door, and the other ambient noise on the area. Under normal conditions, prolonged picking attempts will most likely alert somone (or something) behind the door.

3) When locks are picked, scratches are left inside the key way, and on the key pins. A lab can come to a conclusion that a lock has been picked if these signs are obvious.

[maxxed]

1 The time it will take to pick a lock will vary drastically due to all sorts of variables, but yes a lock can be picked in a few seconds. I usually unlock doors in less than 2 minuts

2 noise from picking will vary a pick gun can be loud enough to produce an echo in the dead of night. I'm sure that the quitest meathod is SPP and the amount of noise probably would not disturb anyone inside.

3 Evidence left behind can even show the meathood of attack used on the lock. Pick guns can leave little dents in the bottom of the pins, rakeing tends to rotate the pins so circular scratches or scrubbing patterns can be found. SPP looks more like a dot and sometimes will have a tail on it.

The only evidence that may be visible from the outside would be a slight marks inside the keyway showing where the turning wrench was placed.

I used factory HPC tools when I did the testing and the tools do have rough edges. Tools like many of the people produce here are very smooth and as a result evidence would be extreemly hared to find

[maintenanceguy]

1) In my experience, I'd estimate that 70% locks in use on front doors can be picked in the neighborhood of one minute. 20% in under 3 minutes, 5% eventually but with a lot of work and another 5%- just forget it.

2) Picking is not silent. It's not really loud, I'd might or might not sleep through it but if I was awake, I'd definitely know someone was doing something to my door. Like anything else, the more you're careful to be quitet, the longer things take.

3) Evidence should not be visible to the naked eye. The internal components of a picked lock will show some scratches from the lockpicks because they are harder than a brass key. however, under magnification all locks will have some scratches on teh inside. I'd suspect that a forensic specialist could say that a lock was llikely picked but never that it certainly was and it would be pretty easy to find another expert who would disagree.

[unlisted]

Don't need to go over what everyone else has said, but a picked/bumped/snap gunned, etc lock, can and always will be leave evidence behind.

Even those custom picks made by persons here leave marks that can be professionally seen. And experts will not disagree. (re the reply above) Keys leave one type or style of markings, any picking/bypassing (foreign) object inserted into a keyway leaves another type.

So seeing as its your first time posting, I highly recommend you do NOT pick any locks unless you own them yourself, and they are not in use.

(Kinda makes me wonder what type of report your working on also) what grade are you in?

[Safety0ff]

Yea, no need to recap for me either.

I believe LSS+ (Locks, safes & security) has images of the forensic evidence left behind in the locks from bumping, picking etc.

[mh]

The forensic part becomes difficult if it's used to prove that a burglar has manipulated the lock (in cases when insurance companies deny a claim, because no other evidence of a burglary was found)
Simply because it's hard to determine who has manipulated the lock... Was it a burglar? Or someone who wants to commit insurance fraud?...

Cheers,
mh

[digital_blue]

... Not to mention I'd imagine it is easy to raise the question as to whether this lock has every been manipulated by a locksmith for whatever reason.

[mcm757207]

... Not to mention I'd imagine it is easy to raise the question as to whether this lock has every been manipulated by a locksmith for whatever reason.

Not to mention the question of "were they successful at picking the lock?"

Unless of course the tension wrench left marks around the inside of the housing, but that's not always the case.

[RangerF150]

... Not to mention I'd imagine it is easy to raise the question as to whether this lock has every been manipulated by a locksmith for whatever reason.

Yeah, but that would be a historical scratch, and would have signs of wear ( depending on how long ago the locksmith worked on it) A freshly picked lock would have "new" scratches!

Just a theory

To the OP, if your budget allows, I would suggest you get a copy of Locks, Safes, and Security. It's got a comprehensive section on forensic evidence with regard to exactly your question. And if someone else is picking up the tab and you get to keep the books your in clover

[eurolock fan]

Where can I buy a copy of Locks, Safes and, Security. Also I heard there are three versions of it is that true?

[Safety0ff]

Where can I buy a copy of Locks, Safes and, Security.

http://www.security.org/

Also I heard there are three versions of it is that true?

Yes it is. http://www.security.org/lss-tour/COST.HTM