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by grv575 » 27 May 2008 16:35
I'll try to keep it specific:
When you false set a spool pin, sometimes it seems you would have to rotate the plug backwards quite a bit and you have 1 of two options.
a) keep light tension and push harder with the pick to try to get the spool to rotate the plug backwards just enough to set, so as not to unset other pins
b) rotate the plug backward ever so slightly with the tension wrench and use light force with the pick to bind the spool pin
Problem with a) is that you're pushing so hard that when it finally does set, the force used (the spool may jump) can disturb and unset neighboring pins.
Problem with b) is that you tend to just lose prior set pins by removing the tension like this.
Wondering which is more effective? What technique (a or b or a variant) do you use?
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by apb » 27 May 2008 17:42
I think that both options are correct. No locks are the same. I think keeping light tension while the plug begins to rotate backward is more applicable, however you should not have to keep a lot of force on the pin to get it up to the shear line. Sometimes, it is necessary to maintain contact with the pin as you are lifting it to the shear line to get it just to the right spot and keep it from just jumping up there. With stubborn locks (older/rusty) you may have to pull the plug back manually (your option b) while working with the pin and keeping contact with your pick. Trial and error is some cases in my experience. If you find you are having to lift the pin using a lot force I would change the strategy a bit.
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by vitti » 27 May 2008 21:01
I agree with what apb said. Use a really light tension and let the spool rotate the plug back as needed unless the plug is dirty or under strong spring tension as some padlocks and KIK's tend to be. I try to let the pins do all the work though. When picking spools it is inevitable that setting a spool will unset another pin. It's the nature of the beast. Just keep at it. You might have to set the same pin 3 times before it finally opens.
Once you've opened the same lock a few times you'll start to figure out the order that the pins set. Unlike standard pinned locks you could have a set order that's 3x as long as the number of pins in the lock. But the order will still be the same every time.
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by csthomas » 3 Jun 2008 18:43
In my opinion option b. is the one that works best. If I get to annoyed I'll try a. but usually I get option b. to work first.
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by le.nutzman » 4 Jun 2008 10:01
vitti wrote:I agree with what apb said. Use a really light tension and let the spool rotate the plug back as needed unless the plug is dirty or under strong spring tension as some padlocks and KIK's tend to be. I try to let the pins do all the work though. When picking spools it is inevitable that setting a spool will unset another pin. It's the nature of the beast. Just keep at it. You might have to set the same pin 3 times before it finally opens.
Once you've opened the same lock a few times you'll start to figure out the order that the pins set. Unlike standard pinned locks you could have a set order that's 3x as long as the number of pins in the lock. But the order will still be the same every time.
It's important to understand that when you're dealing with security pins such as spool, serrated or spoorated that regardless of what the binding order is or is going to be, setting the security pins first is a must.
You may false set a spool or serrated pin and all that it's doing if you don't know what's going on in the lock is temporarily transferring the binding pin to a different pin. You're going to have pins that set before the security pins and then when you go to set the security pins you UNSET previously set pins, that's because you're not picking in the correct order. The only way around this is ultimately to set the secuirty pins first. It's alot of trial and error.
When dealing with setting spool pins, the amount of force you use on the pick shouldn't ever have to change to the extent that you notice. If you're noticing that much of a change, then it's not the pins, it's you, you're forcing it. Now that's different from varying the amount of tension on the tension wrench. You have to sometime vary the amount of tension in order to accomodate security pins but that's on the tension side only. Your lifting force should never change, if it does, that just means you're applying way more tension than what you need.

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by .45cal » 4 Jun 2008 18:06
I often like to release a bit of tension and slightly rotate my pick back and forth. I find it causes the pin to set just a bit faster and may help keep some of the other pins from falling. Try it out and let me know how it works for you.
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by le.nutzman » 5 Jun 2008 8:02
.45cal wrote:I often like to release a bit of tension and slightly rotate my pick back and forth. I find it causes the pin to set just a bit faster and may help keep some of the other pins from falling. Try it out and let me know how it works for you.
I'm just curious as to how you would rotate the pick back and forth inside that keyway. Unless you mean you rock the pick front to back or side to side. Not getting a clear picture on this one.
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by grv575 » 11 Jun 2008 3:28
Some more thoughts after improving my skill with security pins:
- You pretty much need to use light turning tension. If you use medium tension on the wrench then you will keep turning the plug far enough into a false set spool. When you turn the plug back, it seems you'll unset an already set spool every time.
- What I've found to work then is the following exercise:
1. Apply 0 tension with the wrench and push up on each individual pin. See how far up they go and get the feel for where exactly each pin is and the exact feel of that pin moving with no tension
2. Incrementally apply very, very slight tension as you're moving each pin. Stop the moment something even slightly binds. After picking like this, you'll be surprise about how little tension (feather light, really) it takes to get each pin to bind and pick the lock
3. Keep light tension the entire time. Do not let the plug rotate far forward and false set any security pins. Make sure you get the spools far up enough into the hull while maintaining the very slight tension (this will bind them at the shear, rather than push them too far up - but the usual mistake is not pushing one or two of the pins far up enough it seems, so it helps to have a good feel for how high each pins goes) which will set them without false setting
- Another common mistake is the torque wrench getting stuck in the lock and not providing any turning force. The name of the game is binding pins with the turning tension (slight though it may be).
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by Trip Doctor » 11 Jun 2008 14:41
Personally, I go with option a.
le.nutzman, if I understood you correctly, you mentioned setting security pins first, however, they won't always set first, in fact, spools with usually set last (because of their decreased diameter). So, many times you actually have to set the regular pins first, then deal with the spool pins, and if other pins happen to reset, you have to go back and pick the regular pins again (but now with the spools set).
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by le.nutzman » 12 Jun 2008 8:34
Trip Doctor wrote:Personally, I go with option a.
le.nutzman, if I understood you correctly, you mentioned setting security pins first, however, they won't always set first, in fact, spools with usually set last (because of their decreased diameter). So, many times you actually have to set the regular pins first, then deal with the spool pins, and if other pins happen to reset, you have to go back and pick the regular pins again (but now with the spools set).
I'm speaking from the experience of dealing with American 5200 padlocks where EVERY pin is a security pin. I've pinned them every way that I could possibly pin them and have yet to come across a pinning where the security pins didn't have to be set first. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about the spool pins having a decreased diameter, unless you're referring to the actual inner body of the spool pin, which even then, if you're using the lightest of tension when picking spools, they tend to not even get hung up on the spool. Again, just my personal experience.

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by Trip Doctor » 12 Jun 2008 14:18
Ah, I was referring to locks with a mix of spools and regular pins. (And by decreased diameter I did mean the inner body.) If we're talking all spools it's a different story  .
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by grv575 » 13 Jun 2008 0:21
I can finally pop open the master 140 at will (< 1 minute) now. It helps to watch people pick this lock on youtube (search for master 140) in order to get the technique down. I switched from levering against the bottom of the keyway to just pushing up on the pins (using a pencil grip) from the top of the keyway. The comment on one of the videos that the biggest beginner mistakes are to apply too much tension to the torque wrench and applying too much tension with the pick - you really don't need much for on either instrument - watch the guys who can open the lock in 10-20s for how they do it. Again, it always that one last pin that's not set that you need to find and set that's usually the problem if you've been at it for a while with no luck. I find that I don't need to vary the tension much at all (real light -> even lighter). One thing to note is that the good ones tend to use a really long tension wrench so that they can adjust the tension in very small increments.
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by apb » 13 Jun 2008 1:50
The longer the wrench it seems you may have to apply more tension, especially if you are using material that bends some. If you use less flexible material that is short and close to the plug, you may set pins faster with less tension. Otherwise, if the longer tension wrench is your experience, go ahead, but watching a video is only that person's method and depends on the lock they are using. With less flexibility for tension wrench material, it's easier to vary the force you are using to set pins, as opposed to a flexible wrench that is bending. One rule of thumb is to keep the wrench 1 1/2"-2" at the most using rigid material (windshield wiper blades work fine).
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by apb » 13 Jun 2008 19:16
Trip Doctor wrote:Ah, I was referring to locks with a mix of spools and regular pins. (And by decreased diameter I did mean the inner body.) If we're talking all spools it's a different story  .
These are the pins le.nutzman is referring to. These are from an American 5200. As i understand it, he was referring to "security pins". All these pins are considered security pins but only two are spool pins, the other three are serrated pins. I do agree though, that the last pin picked in this particular lock is a spool pin before it opens and not a serrated pin. Here's a link to the complete picture of the lock he is referring to. I have not encountered an American 5200 with only spool pins and I have come across some with normal driver pins.
http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm26 ... C00969.jpg
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by le.nutzman » 13 Jun 2008 21:54
apb wrote:Trip Doctor wrote:Ah, I was referring to locks with a mix of spools and regular pins. (And by decreased diameter I did mean the inner body.) If we're talking all spools it's a different story  .
 These are the pins le.nutzman is referring to. These are from an American 5200. As i understand it, he was referring to "security pins". All these pins are considered security pins but only two are spool pins, the other three are serrated pins. I do agree though, that the last pin picked in this particular lock is a spool pin before it opens and not a serrated pin. Here's a link to the complete picture of the lock he is referring to. I have not encountered an American 5200 with only spool pins and I have come across some with normal driver pins. http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm26 ... C00969.jpg
Welp, he's got it pretty much right. I've came across several 5200s that have been all spool pins, not many but some.
I'll also agree that the stiffness of the tension wrench that you use has alot to do with it as well. Me personally, I use the Petersen Pry Bar Lite and top keyway tension and usually pop these babies in under two minutes.

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