Phone call from Canadian Customs

[assweasel]

Sorry but your still not going to be getting those picks.
I had a similar experience several years back.

the next step is that you are going to be getting a letter from the Attorney General of British Columbia asking you to provide proof of a legal right to posess these.

Not much hope once you get that letter.

I to live in Bc

I would like to see someone try this argument.
Since the adoption of The Charter of Rights and Freedoms in Canada there is no reverse onus on any one. This means you don't have to prove anything. You can tell them about the Charter and that the onus is on them to prove you don't have a right to possess them.

They will say you don't show up in their database as someone licensed. But that still is not proof of anything. What you end up doing is having the Attorney General's office trying to prove a negative.

This is something that in legal terms just can't be done.

Bottom line after making such an argument your still not going to get your picks (police state) and you will have only pissed off the top cop in the Province.

Good luck.

[WOT]

Sorry but your still not going to be getting those picks.
I had a similar experience several years back.

the next step is that you are going to be getting a letter from the Attorney General of British Columbia asking you to provide proof of a legal right to posess these.

Not much hope once you get that letter.

I to live in Bc

I would like to see someone try this argument.
Since the adoption of The Charter of Rights and Freedoms in Canada there is no reverse onus on any one. This means you don't have to prove anything. You can tell them about the Charter and that the onus is on them to prove you don't have a right to possess them.

They will say you don't show up in their database as someone licensed. But that still is not proof of anything. What you end up doing is having the Attorney General's office trying to prove a negative.

This is something that in legal terms just can't be done.

Bottom line after making such an argument your still not going to get your picks (police state) and you will have only pissed off the top cop in the Province.

Good luck.

I guess that's Government of Canada for ya. Rumor has it you can pretty much get away with smoking in the plain view in gas town though.

[digital_blue]

In the 'laws' thread, I believe that posession with intent to......yada,yada.... Is the normal verbage of the laws written.

Not the way I read the law. Yes, it does have the standard "with intent", but the sticky part - and the part they could hang you with if they wanted to - would be this:

353. (1) Every one who



(b) purchases or has in his possession in a province an automobile master key otherwise than under the authority of a licence issued by the Attorney General of that province,

is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years.

Exception

<snip>

(2) A licence issued by the Attorney General of a province as described in paragraph (1)(a) or (b) may contain such terms and conditions relating to the sale, offering for sale, advertising, purchasing, having in possession or use of an automobile master key as the Attorney General of that province may prescribe.
Fees

<snip>

(5) The definitions in this subsection apply in this section.
"automobile master key"
«passe-partout d’automobile »
"automobile master key" includes a key, pick, rocker key or other instrument designed or adapted to operate the ignition or other switches or locks of a series of motor vehicles.

"licence"
«licence »
"licence" includes any authorization.

I've highlighted in red the pertinent parts. Notice that, in this particular section that applied to an "automobile master key", there is no mention of intent whatsoever. Simple possession, without a license, is illegal. Even the purchasing of said tools is illegal. Notice that any one of your run-of-the-mill SouthOrd pick sets would meet the criteria for "automobile master key".

Interestingly enough, the wording of this plays in my favor (in Manitoba), but plays against someone in BC or Alberta (and possibly Saskatchewan? Not sure...). Because the Province of Manitoba does not issue licenses to locksmiths, it is impossible for a professional, trading locksmith to comply with the possession laws. It has never been tested in a Manitoba court, but I (personally) believe that non-existence of a provincial license would negate the legal requirements to have such a license. In other words, my defense, if ever I needed one, would be "No, I don't have a license, and you just tell me how I might go about applying for one."

I figure that if I'm breaking the law carrying picks in Manitoba, so is every locksmith out there.

FWIW, the previous two sections of the Criminal Code of Canada do mention possession of implements of burglary, and they do include the standard "intent" clause.

Cheers,

db

[raimundo]

So they will send them, and possibly send a post it note to the horsey set, and this will be but on a spindle until its time to throw away all the petty stuff, the horsemen don't have time to pick nits for some customs tightass, this won't ultimatly lead to anything,

[Safety0ff]

If you give the RCMP a hammer, will they find a nail?

[assweasel]

If you give the RCMP a hammer, will they find a nail?

LMAO that is to funny. I am stealing that one off you safety.

[TANGO]

I seriously doubt the RCMP are going to show up at your door, they have more serious stuff to attend to unless you have a heavy criminal record. From what you posted they will send them to you anyway. The worst thing in my opinion is they may confiscate them.

[itisjustme1]

Canadian laws is much different but I have no doubt the RCMP has been notified. Now will they arrive at our door, well I suspect not but I am sure your name and what you received will be a mater of record should any new crimes develop in your local area. If that should happen then I would expect the RCMP will be out to talk with you.

Good luck and keep moving forward with your interests in locks and picking as what you are doing is the only way to continue learning.

[digital_blue]

...I am sure your name and what you received will be a mater of record should any new crimes develop in your local area. If that should happen then I would expect the RCMP will be out to talk with you.

Maybe in a town of 50 people... maybe. But I seriously doubt that every time there's a new crime in an area the RC's check "the database" of known pick owners.

db

[lunchb0x]

I brought my picks in through customs to Canada and declared them as locksmithing tools, the customs guy joked around about me being a professional thief, he didn't want to know anything about them or whether I was licensed or not.

How do you become a licensed locksmith in Canada without working for someone?

[itisjustme1]

...I am sure your name and what you received will be a mater of record should any new crimes develop in your local area. If that should happen then I would expect the RCMP will be out to talk with you.

Maybe in a town of 50 people... maybe. But I seriously doubt that every time there's a new crime in an area the RC's check "the database" of known pick owners.

db

I really didn't mean he will get a visit for every time there may be an incident in town. All I meant to say was should customs advice his local PD and there happens to all of a sudden be a spree of unusual incidents close to him he very well may be questioned.

[pickmonger]

Just so that you know posession of picks is an indictment offense.
in Canada.

From what I was told by a lawyer that is the equivilent of a felony offense in the USA ..... Its a more serious offense than when they procede by summary offense.

You may want to contact a lawyer or legal advice service.

Its true that maybe 99% of picks get throught and of those most will just be siezed.

There are a number of factors where the person may find themselves facing serious criminal charges

[digital_blue]

How do you become a licensed locksmith in Canada without working for someone?

That depends entirely on the province in which you reside. In Manitoba, there is no such thing as a "licensed locksmith". If you want to be a locksmith, you need a registered business name.

Just so that you know posession of picks is an indictment offense.
in Canada.

From what I was told by a lawyer that is the equivilent of a felony offense in the USA ..... Its a more serious offense than when they procede by summary offense.

You may want to contact a lawyer or legal advice service.

Its true that maybe 99% of picks get throught and of those most will just be siezed.

There are a number of factors where the person may find themselves facing serious criminal charges

Pickmonger: This is not always true. Though the law is a federal one, it's application is a provincial one. See the reference and explanation I posted earlier in this thread.


db

[pickmonger]

To further clairify .......

Some provinces in Canada issue licenses some provinces do not.
In some cases the police themselves charge the offender in other cases
it is the crown attorney. This can make similar cases signifcantly different

For our US readers the mix up would be similar to a situation where the
Federal Criminal Code required all pick holders to be licensed with permits. HOWEVER the individual states would be the ones to issue said permit. Then things got complicated because some states did not issue permits for what ever reason.

Of course the USA leaves the licenseing to individual states and do do not get a conflict between state and federal law.

A federal law requires a permit that the state you live in does not issue.

In Canada locksmiths in Ontario and Quebec are not licensed. Yet the federal code requires it. Most assume that they would be loopholed and not subject to criminal charges.

What concerns me is people leading other readers to wrongly assume that they will not have a problem. Even in Ontario where there is no permit available, people have had problems with customs.

Issues such as bump keys and hobbiest picking greatly bother some law enforcement folks and they do everything they can to cause trouble for hobbiest pickers.

There are also special interest groups that get involved ie Locksmiths
Associations. Police Services that assume any picker is a crook unless he is licensed.

The powers that be have a lot of discressionary power and it often is abused.

[pickmonger]

Pickmonger: This is not always true. Though the law is a federal one, it's application is a provincial one. See the reference and explanation I posted earlier in this thread.

I would be interested in seeing further references on that.

I ADMIT I COULD BE DEAD WRONG

Accoring to the lawyer I spoke to ..... It would be the RCMP enforcing a federal law with a Federal Crown Attorney prosecuting any violation of
the lockpick clause of the Criminal Code of Canada.