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To make or to buy?

Having read the FAQ's you are still unfulfilled and seek more enlightenment, so post your general lock picking questions here.
Forum rules
Do not post safe related questions in this sub forum! Post them in This Old Safe

The sub forum you are currently in is for asking Beginner Hobby Lock Picking questions only.

Postby ToolyMcgee » 7 Aug 2008 19:10

shredder wrote:Picks are cheap. Why not buy a basic set and start off with that. Most people with basic shop skills and no lock picking experience (not ever holding a real pick in their hand) at all is probably not going to make good home made picks their first time. I think once you learn what proper tools are supposed to look and feel like and learn the basics of picking locks then you would be much more likely to make good homebrew picks.


You couldn't just let it die. You had to post. Dog has probably already made, or bought his first pick and gotten his use out of this thread. Time for more ranting.

Cheap picks are CHEAP! Stamped by a machine and made of poor quality steel. You still have to be involved in the production of the picks you buy. From what I understand even top dollar picks have to be filed and/or sanded down on the edges to reach their potential. It makes me so mad! If I had paid 300 dollars for a knife I had to sharpen myself I would cut the person responsable when I was done. To put it another way when you buy those crummy house brand wrenches, screwdrivers, etc. from your local Menard's, Lowes, etc. don't be surprised when they don't fit right and bend like they were made from pizza dough.

Don't take all my hostility the wrong way. I agree with you on many levels. Basic shop skills are building a bird house and 99 percent of my class built condemned birdhouses, so granted many people don't have the skills to work with wood and should never be turned loose on anything metal. Also, if you are strapped for time, can't be bothered, just like to buy stuff, want a nice case, I mean there are a million reasons to buy a set. I plan on getting around to it just out of curiosity. Seriously though if you don't have the time/patience to make 1 short hook, then you probably aren't going to be the greatest lock popper since it takes less time to make a short hook than it takes many people to pick their first lock.

"Real pick" and "proper tools"? :roll: I don't know whether to be angry or laugh. I choose both with a sprinkle of gratitude for giving me a reason to vent. :wink:

Test: Your article is not entirely in the spirit of my ranting if only for the entreprenueral part as I like more of a half crazy, half genius, died a penniless hobo in the gutter kind of innovation story. Happy endings stink :lol: A good read none the less. I was thinking closer to the blacksmith mentality. Your alternative story is a link to the same article.

Dog: The original question now that I reread it was: is it easier to make, or to buy. Sorry for my rambling. It's probably "easier" to buy. Grumble...grumble.

-Tooly
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Postby shredder » 7 Aug 2008 19:41

When I said "real pick" I wasn't referring to purely just "new manufactured" picks, I just meant a real working properly shaped picked be it new or homebrew.

Not trying to get in into a "what's best" argument, I just thought for a total beginner who isn't a "shop guy" buying a decent "value" set of picks would be easiest. This is coming partly from experience. I made a few short hooks from hacksaw blades before I got my Southord set and I can tell you I am having better luck with my manufactured set. Once I gain more experience and some better shop skills I will probably make some more of my own picks which will probably turn out a lot better than my first try.
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Postby test » 7 Aug 2008 19:43

barbarian wrote:Sorry, but I agree with shredder.
...
But to start off with making tools first, and then learning picking, in my opinion carries a high risk that your first tools won't be very good and you will lose interest.


Thats OK. You're allowed to disagree with me lots do. They are wrong but lots do :) :lol:


I couldn't even open a simple padlock when I started. I ended up buying a super cheap deadbolt cylinder. Disassembling it (almost losing all the springs in the process) to remove a few pins so I had a 3 pin lock.

3 Pins! I still couldn't open the thing. Then 2 pins. That opened most of the time. I wasn't sure, so I went to 1 pin! One (1)!

Then it clicked. Literally, I was using too much tension. Like a bolt of lightning from the 3rd eye. [i]I felt it[i]. 2pins, 3 pins click, click click, click. Right to 5 pins. Click!

Next was that pesky padlock. 20-30 seconds into it Boing! The hasp sprung open and I felt a surge of adrenalin.

I'm still hooked on that feeling. Picking isn't easy. It takes time to learn, with forums like this, and billions, Ok, thousands of howto videos out there its getting much easier. And I'm totally cool with that. Its all about discovery.



btw - My first pick was a bent bobby pin. My first tension wrench was a another bent bobby pin. That kept me occupied for a long time.
10 Print "circular reasoning works because "
20 GOTO 10
test
 
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Postby slojewski » 7 Aug 2008 19:50

I've tried many a picks using paper clips and odds and ends, but they always relied on my luck... I've even tried using a saw blade, but i go one from a saws all and that was wayyy too thick. i would definitely buy a set to start out with. saves headache.
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Postby Safety0ff » 7 Aug 2008 20:37

I'm pretty sure the discrepancy was because he me an assumption rather than a math mistake.
Image
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Postby test » 7 Aug 2008 21:54

ToolyMcgee wrote:Test: Your article is not entirely in the spirit of my ranting if only for the entreprenueral part as I like more of a half crazy, half genius, died a penniless hobo in the gutter kind of innovation story. Happy endings stink :lol: A good read none the less. I was thinking closer to the blacksmith mentality. Your alternative story is a link to the same article.


Sorry about the two links to the same story. I had to trick the other side into reading it some how didn't I? :D

Your ranting skills are well above my own at the moment. I'll have to work a little harder on it.

Full disclosure: I now own more picks than I need. From nice home made finished picks, to totally un-used factory picks. I'm still working on making a nice Snake pick by hand. The factory made one I have is soo thin and perfect I am having a hard time making one better. Not that im a big fan of rakes... ( SPP ftw!)

That being said... When I'm showing someone the ropes... er.. pins and they are starting to get frustrated, I normally say "This pick, its is my favorite, i made it myself. Be gentle and I'll let you use it"

You know what happens next... Click. Open goes the lock :)


I've been thinking about this thread, and worrying about the amount of ranting I was doing. Then I re-read the subject. "to make or buy"

I really like the feeling of using my own tools. I code tools and use them on these funky things called computers. I had a 'blog' thing before there were blogs, and used some hand crafted php scripts to help automate the process.

I like food. I still eat at restaurants. But nothing beats a home cooked meal. Even if I didn't cook it, but I picked up all of the ingredients its partly mine, and I helped make it happen. Those tomatoes were picked (from the bin, or in the summer from a bush) by me. The meat was picked-up from that kickass halal butcher down the street. Bacon... oh god. I can find some sweet ass double smoked bacon that is so well cured you can eat it uncooked...

And dont get me onto Cheese. Fsck cheese wizz. Give me some grated chedder some butter and flower and you are never going to look at a box of Krap Dinner the same way again.

And Velvetta... dont even go there.

I can bake bread from scratch, repair most mechanical things etc etc. These are all skills that I have worked on over time.

I've even grown my own corn in my backyard in the city! Anything is possible if you try. The harder something is the better it feels when you are victorious.

To me, and by the sounds of things some other here. Buying picks to start off is like using cheat codes in a video game. You are only cheating yourselves.



Enough of this for now I'm hungry. Time for a snack.
10 Print "circular reasoning works because "
20 GOTO 10
test
 
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Postby test » 7 Aug 2008 21:58

test wrote: Bacon... oh god. I can find some sweet donkey double smoked bacon that is so well cured you can eat it uncooked...


LOL I got owned by the profanity filter there! Heheh double donkey. I wonder if they'd stock that at the halal store... hmm.
10 Print "circular reasoning works because "
20 GOTO 10
test
 
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Joined: 21 May 2004 17:06
Location: Eastern Ontario

Postby ToolyMcgee » 8 Aug 2008 0:44

So, if I become a good farmer, then my butcher will teach a chef how to pick locks with the corn I grow in my backyard? Who do I give my credit card # to so we can make it happen?

In all seriousness though this is perspective into a life philosophy it would be good for people to emulate on some level. I'm not saying everyone should do everything for themselves, because that's ludicrous, but I know far to many people who are content in being intentionally ignorant. You may know him as your buddy who has blown up three car engines, but still won't check his oil. You say, "If you want I can show you how to check your oil". His reply "I don't know anything about cars man." It's a simple everyday task that would literally take seconds to learn, but he refuses the knowledge even though it is negatively impacting his life. He wants someone to do it for him. "I don't know and I don't wanna know" is his mantra. This is a reason I say make your own picks, to battle this kind of thinking. It is getting a little absurd to say a chef has to be a farmer and a butcher to be a good chef. So it would be unfair of me to say someone cannot be a good picker unless he makes his own picks because it isn't true. However I do think a chef has to know something about being a butcher and a farmer to be a good chef. You can't be totally ignorant of what is ripe, or not know what meat cut is what and be good. So, to be a good lock picker you should have to know something about why a tool is made a certain way. Do you see where I am going? Making a pick and using it is a different experience from using a factory cut one and more perspective. The more angles you look at something from the more of it you see. The "best" solution here is to buy one of every pick from every manufacturer, then make one of every kind you own for yourself. Now use them to pick one of every lock in the entire world and judge for yourself what works the best. Maybe it's a SouthOrd snake or a Peterson half diamond. Maybe it's something unique you made for yourself, but if you don't make 1 you will never make what could potentially be [i]the[/] one.

The original question wasn't the "best" however, it was fastest I believe. Like I have already said many times fastest depends on how good you are with the tools you have compared to how long it is going to take for you to shop online and recieve them in the mail. Even if you have two left hands and you are missing some fingers you should be able to make 1 usable shorthook in less time than it takes to recieve a package. That is of course assuming you have the time to invest in whatever failures you encounter. Many people don't.

That's great test, your rant has made me rant. Nice post though, to bad it made me think. Sorry everyone for all of the terrible english. I've gotta go start my farm now.

-Mcgee
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Postby shredder » 8 Aug 2008 2:01

Sorry I didn't mean to challenge anyone's "philosophy". My original post was not directed at you. You have many good points and i see what you are saying. OP said he was frustrated and not having proper tools might be an issue. If you have the means, time, and skill to make good picks i say go for it!

I live in an apartment so I don't have a grinding wheel and making picks with just a dremmel tool for me was somewhat time consuming but I did it anyway for some of the same reasons in your post.

I agree that making your own picks is a good learning experience for a new picker but it can't hurt to have some already working picks handy to use as a reference or backup. :wink:
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Postby ToolyMcgee » 8 Aug 2008 2:48

It wasn't an argumentative post written with the intent to counter anything you or anyone else has said in here. More like griping, and thinking outloud. I was mostly agreeing with test then it kinda got away from me and turned into something maybe useful, so I posted it.

Sorry I got kinda crazy earlier, but I can be somewhat of a grump when I don't get my nap. :mrgreen: Looking for fight basically as an excuse to rant.
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Postby test » 8 Aug 2008 8:08

I agree with all of you. I hope I haven't offended anyone in any way.

There are always circumstances that make actually building things difficult. When I started this I was in a apartment and I didn't have easy access to a bench grinder, or to factory made picks.

That led me down the path which was to make due with what I had. With no balcony I did to my hand filing on and made a huge mess of my carpet. (That stain was here when i moved in!) Eventually that ended up to be a box full of files, a few dremel clones, and a pile of pick blanks that I made last time I had access to a bench grinder.

That being said... I'm guilty as the next guy for buying a shiny new toy. I just feel guilty about it.

The message I was trying to get out there is you can pick a lock with junk. Nice tools are easier to use, but you dont need them to start.

When non pickers find out what I do they are almost more amazed that I was able to make a pick than that I can pick.


We are mostly preaching to the converted here. However there are the silent members out there working hard on their locks, with no resource but time. I hope to give them encouragement.

Cheers
10 Print "circular reasoning works because "
20 GOTO 10
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