n00b : 3 days and no click

by **opal** » 29 Jul 2004 15:52

Hi,

I reckon I must be going for the record on amount of days spent and not even managing to fluke open a single lock.

My problems are as follows...

get the first pin into place (visible pin goes floppy so i know that one's taken). I get the 2nd one into place which is harder to see whether it's taken or not, but you can feel the lack of resistance (usually a good sign). At this point either the 3rd pin won't move (locked up solid due to tension) or it will move but regardless of where you put it, it won't take. seems to be the same with the 4th and 5th pins. They all just seem to bob up and down.

I watched a video where a guy picked a yale padlock. From start to finish the movie was about 20 secs and only 5 secs of this was pin manipulation. I notice that, as pins go down the barrel turns some. I can get the barrel to turn, then i can almost let go of the tension rod but some pins will be stuck solid at this point and I can go no further. I fluked 4/5 pins to be held, but the last pin (which was the 3rd) wouldn't have it.

I dunno, I'm starting to feel a bit disillusioned. I never expected it to be easy, but some people talk of reading tutorials and then being able to pick their own front door within 30 secs 1st go. My front door is a shitty euro lock on a PVC door... can't get anywhere near picking it (or at least i don't feel like i can).

It's a yale barrel lock (the ordinary type in an average wooden front door with 5 pins). What I think I need is a re-keyable practice lock... possibly a see through one so that i can see what i'm doing to start with. Does anyone know where I might get anything like that in the UK? I've checked DevonLocks.com where I got my pick set from but they don't sell training gear.

Thanks for any help

by **CycloneJack** » 29 Jul 2004 16:54

It sounds as if you are picking from the front of the lock to the back. Most locks have a back to front configuration. Start by pressing down the back pin, and slowly working your way to the front. This could be your problem. Dont give up! I would suggest buying a easy lock to pick, such as a master padlock, or if you want to practice on deadbolts, buy a kwikset. Also print up the MIT guide, some information can be overlooked!
G'luck

by **mbell** » 29 Jul 2004 17:08

Much as I hate to recommend them, visit B & Q or some similar DIY store - They sell cylinders such as 'Avcocet' and 'BIRD' and some unbranded replacement cylinders. Perfect for starting out with.

Learn to rekey them yourself (some material is available on this site). It may be that the lock on your door has spool pins or other aditional security measures.

by **CaptHook** » 29 Jul 2004 20:09

Most locks have a back to front configuration

This is not true. Locks vary from lock to lock, find the order the pins bind in. Could be 35142, 12543.....etc. Locate with pin binds first and go from there. Then the next and so forth. The back to front, front to back concept will only go so far, mainly on poorly made locks.
Chuck

by **WhiteHat** » 29 Jul 2004 20:46

I totaly agree with Capthook

it's extreemly important to learn to feel which pin is actually binding, and then pick that one - not necessarily in order of front to back..

also, it doesn't matter if you can see it or not - don't rely on your vision at all. practice paying attention to the movement of the tension tool (should slightly move when you pick a pin) and the pick itself.

also, a tendancy for newbies is to apply too much tension - you only need just enough to turn the cylinder. stick the key in and use two fingers to turn it with the minimal force possible. this is the amount of tension that you will need to apply with the wrench.

sounds like that you may need to pick the third pin either first or second, the reason that the back pins are not binding at all is because the third one is binding too much (from your description).

WH

by **CycloneJack** » 29 Jul 2004 23:19

My bad- I should have said many locks have a back to front configuration.
I was suggesting an attempt to set the 5th,4th or 3rd pin first.

by **milkman22** » 30 Jul 2004 1:12

i'm a little new to actual lockpicking. I have a question about the binding, too. If you have the key to the lock wouldnt the pin that fits in the highest or lowest cut of the key be picked first?

by **CaptHook** » 30 Jul 2004 1:21

Nope. Picture the plug itself, and the chambers that are drilled for the pins. If they were in a perfectly straight line, they would all bind at the same time. Now, what makes picking possible is the inheirant flaw of that line of holes not being straight. The pin that will bind first, will be whatever pin is closest to the intended center line they were drilled on. Then the next and so on.
Chuck

by **CaptHook** » 30 Jul 2004 1:42

See, in this example (bottom is key entry side)

If you are turning the plug clockwise, the set order would be something close to 31524. See what Im saying?
Chuck

by **S3rratedSp00L** » 30 Jul 2004 2:52

There are many flaws that are exploited when you pick a lock. One that was mentioned above is that holes are not completely in a straight line. This is true on the plug as well and the shell. (They call it Hull, in the MIT guide, I believe. )

So if the holes aren't even completely straight on each individual part, then you put those two parts together you get misalignment between the plug and the shell as well. Add the fact that the plug will flex when you put tension on it and you get some pins that bind before others from all of the misalignment.

The tolerances between the pins and the holes, as well as pin shapes and pin wear all come into play as well. This is why every lock is different and every lock is pickable. The closer to perfect the tolerances get the harder the lock should be to pick. (There may be other flaws, however depending upon how the lock works)

Some flaws may even be designed in to compensate for pin wear, key wear, etc... Locks must be reliable as well as secure. It's a tradeoff.

If you are mechanically inclined, I would say to take the locks apart and see how it works unless it is important that you not break it. Oh, and make sure you have permission, of course! Just knowing how the lock fits together will help you to visualize what is going on when you pick it.

I would like to have a cutaway lock myself, but it is not really necessary. You need to learn the feel anyway. Get the cutaway, though! Cuz it's cool and it may help you!

Then when you get good at it, maybe you can make a video of it being picked or something!

I would be interested in seeing that, myself!

Don't forget to read as much as you can... search and browse the forums here for anything that looks interesting. Sometimes people wander off topic in very informative ways!

by **skold** » 30 Jul 2004 3:08

i have a problem with a lock... the pins order (from front to back) is :

lower pin | driver

small mushroom
large normal
small normal
large normal
small mushroom
the annoying thing is that the front pin won't set at all and also i only get two clicks...this lock is too expensive to cut or drill ...

i should of made a key but i didn't :oops:

so stupid of me

by **Worker_Bee** » 30 Jul 2004 7:50

Those BIRD locks that Mbell mentioned, oh my goodness they're so bad! I bought one for Â£2 in a sale, and even though I'm absolutely terrible at lock picking I can always get that open with a ball rake in about five seconds. Why would anyone use that on their house?!

On the other hand, I've still not been able to pick a Yale lock.

by **mbell** » 30 Jul 2004 7:57

That's kind of why I mentioned starting with such locks. They're 'feel good' locks - They give you a feeling that you can open the lock whilst you obviously learn the basic technique of lock picking.

Never, never, never fit one to your property.

by **Worker_Bee** » 30 Jul 2004 10:05

Very true, although if you're just going to rely on a cylinder lock you might as well leave your front door open, anyone can just push the latch back using a sheet of plastic cut from a Coke bottle. Got to have a mortice lock too.

by **jason** » 30 Jul 2004 12:49

The coke bottle trick works on the cheaper latch type. It is better from a security point of view to have an automatic deadlock this will prevent the bolt from being pushed back non-destructive entry means that you then have to turn either the internal handle or pick the lock to open it.

If you are a newbie playing with a "Yale" - don't these are not suitable as beginners locks as they have two anti pick pins in them to make life awkward.

Make a board out of MDF (no splinters if woodworking is not your forte) and mount a lock into that, it'll behave more like a lock would in a door and get you started on feeling what's going on better (IMHO). Plus if you make it yourself you can have the size that fits nicely in your car, briefcase, W.H.Y. so that you can keep practicing.

n00b : 3 days and no click

n00b : 3 days and no click

BIRD locks!

True

Who is online