Michigan Law

[Boombaye]

I have been reading up on the law of michigan, can anyone help me decipher it. From what it sounds like, carrying lockpicks are enough to convict you, even if there is no intent. Can anyone help.

Here's the law:

MI – Michigan Michigan Compiled Laws – Section 750.116 - Burglar's tools; possession. Any person who shall knowingly have in his possession any nitroglycerine, or other explosive, thermite, engine, machine, tool or implement, device, chemical or substance, adapted and designed for cutting or burning through, forcing or breaking open any building, room, vault, safe or other depository, in order to steal therefrom any money or other property, knowing the same to be adapted and designed for the purpose aforesaid, with intent to use or employ the same for the purpose aforesaid, shall be guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment in the state prison not more than 10 years.

Thanks,
Boombaye

[MacGyver101]

. . . even if there is no intent

I'm not a lawyer... but, based on the section you quoted, I'm assuming that they can only charge you if you're carrying with intent. (Or am I missing something? It clearly says "with intent", near the end of the section?)

[op-sec]

Note the word "intent"... Also notice that according to the text of the statute, the object must be "adapted and designed for cutting or burning through, forcing or breaking open"...

If your picks are cutting, burning, forcing or breaking something open locks, you're DOING SOMETHING WRONG!

And I say again - as I have in the couple of airplane threads and other places - "Locksmith Tools"!!!

Call them lock picks and the uninitiated are going to view them as burglary tools and you as a criminal or freak. Call them "Locksmith Tools" and it takes on an altogether different connotation. Sometimes, it's not what you say but how you say it.

If you're not a prick, and you're not doing something suspect, you are more likely to win the lottery than be stopped and searched by the police to begin with. If for some reason, you're still get stopped and searched, your attitude will make or break you. Even if the officer decides to conduct an investigation - which depending on his discretion may include seizing your tools - you have opportunity to give a written statement. Make that statement both verbose and factual. IE; The property that was seized consists of "Locksmith Tools" which are used in your pursuit of LockSport. Go into detail with regards to what LockSport is and refer the prosecutor to the likes of TOOOL.US, LockSport International, M. Tobias, etc.

It should NEVER go that far if your interaction with the police officer is correct but if it does, any prosecutor worth his salt is going to drop the charges related to your "Locksmith Tools" and if he doesn't, any defense attorney who spends 10 minutes doing research into LockSport will be able to convince either the DA or the jury of your innocence - at least with regards to your carrying "Locksmith Tools" not being a criminal offense under the statute - as it is written.

BTW, I'm not an attorney but, I could be if I so desired.

[datagram]

The key isn't that it notes destructive methods, ("breaking open" probably covers picks), but that it says "with intent to use or employ." This means you have to show intent before it becomes a problem. Like opsec said, unless you're being a douchebag there should be zero problems with this.

dg

[TOWCH]

I have been reading up on the law of michigan, can anyone help me decipher it. From what it sounds like, carrying lockpicks are enough to convict you, even if there is no intent. Can anyone help.

Here's the law:

MI – Michigan Michigan Compiled Laws – Section 750.116 - Burglar's tools; possession. Any person who shall knowingly have in his possession any nitroglycerine, or other explosive, thermite, engine, machine, tool or implement, device, chemical or substance, adapted and designed for cutting or burning through, forcing or breaking open any building, room, vault, safe or other depository, in order to steal therefrom any money or other property, knowing the same to be adapted and designed for the purpose aforesaid, with intent to use or employ the same for the purpose aforesaid, shall be guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment in the state prison not more than 10 years.

Thanks,
Boombaye

Who wrote that turd? Talk about lack of clarity. Which aforesaid purpose? Making entry? Or "stealing therefrom"?

Also is dumb in that it limits the law's jurisdiction exclusively to stealing money & property. As if there is no other reason someone should be charged with burglary: vandalism, sabotage, wiretapping, ect.

[straightpick]

Technically, you can be charged with possession of burglary tools if you are not a licensed locksmith under this statute. Lock picking sport has no bearing on this. What is OK in the Netherlands has nothing to do with US laws. Much the same as carrying a concealed weapon without a permit and saying that you use it just for target shooting. You need the permit for carrying concealed, not for your intent. If they want to be hard nosed about it they will charge you but most likely will just confiscate the picks. Solution? Don't carry picks, use them at home.

[datagram]

Technically, you can be charged with possession of burglary tools if you are not a licensed locksmith under this statute. Lock picking sport has no bearing on this. What is OK in the Netherlands has nothing to do with US laws. Much the same as carrying a concealed weapon without a permit and saying that you use it just for target shooting. You need the permit for carrying concealed, not for your intent. If they want to be hard nosed about it they will charge you but most likely will just confiscate the picks. Solution? Don't carry picks, use them at home.

If I am not mistaken that only applies if Michigan actually has a law that requires locksmiths to be licensed as well as restricts their tools only to members of their trade. As far as I have found in Michigan law this was not the case, but if I am mistaken please give me the law #'s so I can look it up and update my info!

Thanks,
dg

[TOWCH]

Technically, you can be charged with possession of burglary tools if you are not a licensed locksmith under this statute. Lock picking sport has no bearing on this. What is OK in the Netherlands has nothing to do with US laws. Much the same as carrying a concealed weapon without a permit and saying that you use it just for target shooting. You need the permit for carrying concealed, not for your intent. If they want to be hard nosed about it they will charge you but most likely will just confiscate the picks. Solution? Don't carry picks, use them at home.

You can be charged with this statute licensed locksmith or not. (or any other statute for that matter)

For example: in Oregon you can open carry a handgun in your vehicle without a concealed carry permit. The Oregon legislature went so far as to specifically say just that. An Oregon appeals court recently ruled that your vehicle is a "public place," despite the law itself specifically stating otherwise.

The point? Instead of my non-functional, firing pin removed pistol: when I drove back to Astoria last night: I left the gun in the trunk and put a copy of Oregon firearms law in my holster in it's place, highlighting all the reasons why I had a right to keep it on my person. (as non-funtional it was by definition not a firearm, among other reasons, including that I had right to carry a functional and loaded firearm.)

And yet: in my trunk is how the gun was transported.

I didn't have the time or the desire to poppy _ with cops on why they were wrong. In that situation I would have shut up, handed them the papers and asked for a lawyer.

I suggest anyone who carries picks does the same. Locksmith or not. They are required by law to give you a receipt for confiscated property.

At the end of the day, cops are powerless to do anything but waste your time. You have the power to enable courts to ruin your life by talking to cops,(self-incrimination by itself, regardless of the actual commission of a crime.) or you can refuse to talk and never give the courts any rope to hang you.

IANAL

[TOWCH]

I'm wasting my breath. There's no such thing as a right to remain silent unless you're one of the few educated and confident enough in your research to utilize it.

For instance: cops can lie to you, but if you ignore a lawful order:(or sometimes even if you do obey) Boom: you're dead. Can you tell the difference?

After you ask for a lawyer they will talk at you and say inflamatory things. They'll stand there expectantly. When you ask for a lawyer: they can't ask any more questions, but they can continue to make statements. Statements purposefully crafted to make to talk to them. They'll mis-state facts making you want to correct them.

They can threaten you with unlawful searches, pressing a bogus charge, promise leniency that they don't have the authority to grand, and wouldn't if they did.

And they will unless you notify them they are being recorded. Good luck catching them in the act. That's "wiretapping" in most states. The only reason most police brutality videos on youtube don't end in wiretapping charges is because the publicity is already too big and a revenge wiretap charge will make it worse.

I've been designated driver for years. These aren't bad apples. This is standard operating procedure.

Who you gonna believe? Your civics teacher? Or the figure of authority in uniform?

I mean, you know it's a crime to exercise your rights if you're doing something wrong don't you?

^Not true, but tell a cop you don't consent to a search and this is what you'll hear back. Or maybe: "if you don't consent to a search we'll just have the car towed and impounded while we get a warrant."

Lie to a cop? That's providing a law enforcement officer with false information. Sure you forgot your license at home? Now they have leverage.

Know what probable cause is? Know what isn't? You'd better: cause he'll tell you he has it if he doesn't, and provoke you to lie if he does.

You taking notes while you're talking to him? He is. Notes that are legally admissible as evidence. I've read the notes on friends I was standing right next to while they were talking to the cop. They don't write down what you say, they write down what they hear, and their hearing never benefits you. SO: IT'S BEST TO JUST STFU, ASK FOR A LAWYER AND HAND THEM HIGHLIGHTED STATE STATUTES.

[MacGyver101]

I'm not sure how we got onto second amendment debate, and that section mentions nothing about locksmith licensing.

To answer the original poster's question: if that is the only Michigan legislation dealing with the possession of lockpicking tools, then the law is quite clear (well, for criminal law, anyhow). A conviction under that section would have to rely on establishing that you had intent to use the tools for burglary.

[TOWCH]

I'm not sure how we got onto second amendment debate, and that section mentions nothing about locksmith licensing.

To answer the original poster's question: if that is the only Michigan legislation dealing with the possession of lockpicking tools, then the law is quite clear (well, for criminal law, anyhow). A conviction under that section would have to rely on establishing that you had intent to use the tools for burglary.

Not many things that you can get in trouble for having on you legally.

My point was the law is irrelevant, how not to get caught carrying picks, why it's not worth the trouble even if you're in the right, and don't talk to cops.

[straightpick]

[quoteMy point was the law is irrelevant, how not to get caught carrying picks, why it's not worth the trouble even if you're in the right, and don't talk to cops.
][/quote]


Precisely!

[Eyes_Only]

Its been a while since we had this type of discussion.

[KenW]

Not to churn up an old discussion, but just for clarity, you don't need a license to be a locksmith in Michigan.

Per: http://www.michigan.gov/statelicensesea ... --,00.html

"Call me a Locksmith!"
"Okay, you're a Locksmith."

You need a sales tax license only if you want to buy products at a discount and sell them at retail, in which case you must collect sales tax for the state.

If you're really paranoid about carrying your picks, go to http://www.overnightprints.com and order yourself $10 worth of business cards. You don't even need to start a business, just be "John Doe, Locksmith".

Personally I agree with the other posters, though, that you're unlikely to be searched unless you give the fuzz a hard time about something else. If the cop pulls you over and you try the old "Policemen's Ball" line, you're on your own.

[Medicolockout]

If I am not mistaken that only applies if Michigan actually has a law that requires locksmiths to be licensed as well as restricts their tools only to members of their trade. As far as I have found in Michigan law this was not the case, but if I am mistaken please give me the law #'s so I can look it up and update my info!

Yes. You do need a license to carry AND buy picks in Michigan from my source of info. I make most of mine. Not to say I haven't tried buying picks online and I will see if they come through and HOPE customs doesn't confiscate them. I do good work so far with my hand made ones but it gets frustrating when the profile doesn't fit or the pick need too much polishing to not get hung up on the warding.