Wrong tool for Master M27 five pin?

[fjardeson]

I have a lot of [Master M27 five pin rekeyable cylinders] lying around by virtue of them being "obseleted" at work. Sometimes I can rake'em, and about 1/3 of them open to a home-made bump key. However I think I'm using the wrong tools for SPP on these. My SPP success on these is very bad. (I don't have problems with SPP'ing K1's or Schlage 5-pins, so I believe I'm doing it right.)

It's not false set on mushrooms or spools, as I've disassembled several of them, they are older (machined not cast, nice tolerance but no security pins).

The picks I'm trying are old Majestic hooks and diamonds. They work fine on full sized locks. I've also tried tension from both the top and bottom of the keyway.

I've heard of "Mini-Blue" picks with smaller tips... are those good for these types of locks? Always seems that my t-wrench is in the way, or that I'm not able to reach the pins. (Or maybe just too much coffee!)

[cppdungeon]

If i remember correctly, the majestic picks are kinda on the large side. make sure if you are using a flat-tipped hook, that you are not touching the neighboring pins. This is easier to do this on accident in padlocks because they are smaller. you could always make the tip of the hook smaller if you are doing that.

--Cpp

[ToolyMcgee]

It sounds like you should be having more success spp'ing in the W27 keyway with your majestic picks... How are you holding the cylinders for picking? Do you have any of the keys?

I spring clamp the bible for something to hold onto, or simply use a compatible padlock if there is one.

Vice clamping the bare cylinder to tight can cause extra friction and kill your control. Also, contact with any exterior part of the rotating plug can affect your spp'ing when holding a cylinder in hand, clamp, or other lockmount.

Once you drink the perfect amount of coffee, the problem will reveal itself.

-Tooly

[cppdungeon]

Is it a padlock cylinder? Had any luck with them lately?

--Cpp

[5thcorps]

The wrench may be binding agains the cylinder housing. Take some emery cloth and round over the flat edges very smoothly. This should be done anyway. It sounds as though you may be overpicking the pins. Try moving them just a hairs width at a time. I've have seen many of these where you feather touch 3-4 pins and then then move the last and it pops open. Also if you have the key take a look at how deep each cut is so you know how much to move each pin. If they are able to be disassembled take it apart and start with only one pin in it. Master it then move on to additional pins from there. That is the best way I know of to gain complete knowledge of a lock's characteristics. Then take it apart and switch the pins all around and start again.

[raimundo]

Pick for a few minutes and then take your finger off the tensor, tip the lock keyway down, and if the tensor blade does not fall out, it is binding against the cylinder wall, this can eventually erode that part of the wall to a groove. (no I never did that, but Ive taught people and a used practice lock can become really sucky.)

Rounding and smoothing the edge of the tensor blade helps to avoid this. It can still happen if the fit is just wrong for that part of the keyway, thats why everyone says get various widths and fits of tensor blade, the difference between one that fits well and one that binds can be only a few thousands, less than is readily visible.

[ToolyMcgee]

The problem at hand has already been addressed by much more experienced members. So, the best advice I can give is buy stainless steel cylinder's to abuse for practice whenever possible. They last at least 4 times as long as their counterparts. Especially when practicing raking methods.

-'mcgee

[fjardeson]

Thanks all - I didn't think to clean up my tension wrench, that makes sense since I dismantled one of my practice locks and saw marks on the inside of the cylinder. Will buff up one of my wrenches and try again.

[raimundo]

fj son refers to a stainless cylinder, in other threads, people mention steel keys for common pin tumbler type locks, and I have seen threads that refer to steel pins in pin tumbler locks.
Some people do think that plating with chrome or nickel is a steel and that the lock is solid grey metal, but all I have ever seen are brass or bronze locks that (silver is white in color, all other metals are grey or shades of copper or gold, both of which describe color as well as element)
What company makes stainless locks and what are the model numbers?

[ToolyMcgee]

Actually that was me. You are right, the plug faces are simply plated. Whether it is the quality of the brass they are using compared to the cheaper locks, or the plateing itself they don't wear out as quickly for me. Could be a placebo effect.

I was under the impression that medeco's pins were available in hardened steel. I have schlage pins too that were advertised as hardened steel to resist drilling attacks. Also kryptonite hardened steel key pins and driver pins. As far as steel lock cylinders go though I don't know of any, and I can see why. I suppose I was so enamored with the idea that I let the appearance fool me.

[raimundo]

Brass is an alloy of mainly zinc and copper, which is self lubricating, especially when they add a bit of lead to the alloy, easy on the cutting tools, and the wear just burnishes the parts to work better. while steel on steel wear is different, the cutting tools would need to be replaced more often and probably cost more anyway.

The hardest metal that locks are commonly made of is bronze, this is what best padlocks are made of I believe. Bronze is the alloy of copper and tin, and in some iterations, it can be as hard as steel. bronze will burnish under wear.